With the introductions of Levels the old awards system has become somewhat obsolete and has now been retired. In the new levels system there are four different activities that will increase your level:
• Voting in curation (1p/vote)
• Writing good comments in curation rated 4 stars by a moderator (5p/comment)
• Writing excellent comments in curation rated 5 stars by a moderator (20p/comment)
• Having a new photo published (50p/photo)
The list of is now sorted based on a combination of number of published photos and current level of each photographer.
Can any one explain, how many levels of curation are on 1x.com? I have achieved level 4. What else is required to achieve the highest and how does it helps our participation on the site?
Why is only V3 activity counted. What with all the people that have spend hours volunteering in writing all the different activities in previous versions? It should be easy enough to take those into account if you just bothered.
first of all, the new curation section is a great deal. It increases activity and community and it is helpful for photographers and for curators. I enjoy that a lot..
I am sure, that the founders have heard the votes. Thanks for the open told opinions!
I think, that we all agree, (at least I do), that this first attempt of evaluating and balancing between activity in curation and thereby activity in the community and top ranking needs and deserves additional tuning.
This ranking is important to all of us, it coins our popularity, it is an important reason to participate here.
I see three interests, that concurr and need respect:
- the excellent member curators, who finally and well deserved now are awarded. They bring life and quality in an important process here, they offer time and help, they make 1x unique. Abdulmohsen, Ben, Bill Susanne, Anne and others do so much for this site.
- the top ranked photographers. Their images are, what 1x is. It would be starnge to no longer see Ben, Jef or others in the top photographers. Cennot be, that Photographers like Jan, Sebastian Hardi or others fall out of that top lists. That cannot be.
- the active members. I talk not only about Anna or peter, who drive groups, participate in forum, write and by that create community spirit. I too talk about the volunteers on 1x, the active curators, the mods, who offer hours every day, to keep this side up. They curate, they vote on member curation, moderate make support, answer dozens of questions, write in critique, a very important source of 1x! .... They dont find the time to comment in curation.
All this interests need to be combined. They are not at the moment.
It cannot be, that photographers with 50 or 100 published images fall back in ranking, so no one will ever find them in the member list. This site is about exceptional photography!
On the other hand it is important to award the active members, and volunteers. As well it would be great, if the "stars" here would participate more in community, that is a matter of politeness and appreciation for the platform, that offers that popularity!! In so far much is right too. I think, that those who coin this site by their activity deserve awarding.
I am sure both "sides" see that the others deserve recognition.
And i am sure, that founders will tweak that.It canot be that 50p for a publishing are as important as 50 clicks in screening.
Clicks only dont help anyone, published images still are much more important and difficult to achieve!
Awarded comments in curation are important. But same in Critique!
my suggestion would be,
- to increase the value of published images, top photographers belong on top.
- to increase the value of - to be awarded - good critiques in critique section.
- to decrease the impact of simple clicks in curation.
so in all, to establish a more detailed award system, that awards every side of activity here.
and if i am allowed to tell a wish: to discuss more respectful and polite, we all are in the same boat.
For what my opinion is worth, I agree with your analysis 100% but disagree with your conclusions. I think we can never find the "right" balance between recognition of a member participation (through critique, curation, forums... etc) and the recognition of an excellent photographer (published photos). Two aspects, two recognitions: two rankings. I think it would save a lot of headaches ;) And 100% for respect and politeness, always :)
Ben Goossens CREW
100% agreed with you Christoph:-) I see member curation, more as a replacement of critique section, which has lost a little his unique value, should become much more important again, "strongly awarded" for those who participate with good advise, for photographer who want it and learn and improve with it.
Excellent post Christoph. Thank you for assembling our thoughts and comments into one understandable and respectful post. I have to say, I feel for the founders here... it is a really tough decision with so many elements to consider. How are they supposed to please everyone? It cannot be possible. But can anyone argue with the fact that published photos should be reasonably awarded? That is the very foundation of 1x, is it not? This is coming from someone with almost a year in membership, hundreds of uploaded photographs, and 0 publications :)) I would like my contributions to the community to be recognized but the great artists here are the ones that make this all possible.
One cannot argue with the fact that published photos should be reasonably awarded. We already have a "curator portal" which shows the levels of those CC'ing (clicking and commenting). I certainly am not a top dog photog on this site, but hope to get better - there's something about curating that trains your eye. Thanks for your excellent post and observation Christoph.
Wise words Chris, totally agree with everything you wrote. Thanks for taking your precious time and sharing your thoughts.
Great job Christoph From the fella of few words :-)
Peter Stahl PRO
As I already said we need some change and what you said sound very good Christoph. :-))
You summarized it very well Christoph. I fully agree. Changes can be useful, but they to stay in line with what's the ultimate goal of this site: promoting top photography
Ricky Siegers PRO
I am with you Christoph ! excellent summarized !
Wise & strong point you summarized Christoph. I fully agree with you on your suggestion. 100% support it! - to increase the value of published images, top photographers belong on top. (point for every published photo must be much higher than single vote, now is 50p against 1p, perhaps 100 against 0.1 for vote without comment) - to increase the value of - to be awarded - good critiques in critique section. (additional point for vote with comment, depends on star given by real curator) - to decrease the impact of simple clicks in curation. (0.1p for vote without comment, 1p if the vote for published match the publication) may I suggest to change the terminology for CURATOR? let it left to the professional curator and find other name for the voter curator. It makes confusion on the ground and reduce the prestige of the curator role of the real curator.
Paulo Abrantes PRO
I agree, and if i may (now that some waters and time already passed under the bridge) i can also say my view of the "status quo": 1) it´s a sociological fact: people don´t like changes (Kant, first,and kelsen, after, wrote it in a nice way) but they always want better "things", that by themselves always imply "changes" 2) I think that it´s not very hard to agree that it´s not a nice thing to see pictures of Ben Goossens with 55% and of Jef Van den Houte with 54%, just to give an exemple, but we could stay here for a long time wondering the same with some other great photographers, because there are plenty of "bad" results of the new curation system. 3) 1X always made "the diference" by quality, not quantity, and, for sure, not popularity. Quality was the "face" of 1X in the 4 corners of the world. For those other aspects (popularity, etc, etc) there are many sites to go for. For Quality, at this level, just 1X (and ok..., maybe another one, but in a smaller scale) and when people come to 1X was for this: to see quality. 4) but this was then..., and for now...? what are the main goal of 1X...? Are the main goal the same...? Are we in the same heading? We (and myself, of course) presume that is the same. But we just don´t know that. I just hope so :) We don´t know the market studies, the comercial strategies and so on. 5) I think i understand the "new path" of 1X - to be a major (the bigger...?) photo comunity in the world, to be a place where people actually can "be" and "live" photography, to absorve as many photographers as possible in the world, and where "people can grow" their photographic skills and, then, after, stay here. 6) If I´m right these are fantastic goals to aim for. 7) but, imho, time already proved that is impossible to maintain the same quality with the new curation system. 8) For that i think the "system" needs a "security valve": situations like the above cannot be present in 1X if we are in the "same old track"; quality, i mean. 9) What "security valve" and how...? I don´t know but, 10) Maybe now i can already say that It´s a fact that for the same quality level the site cannot live by "itself", without the "human hand" of the resident curators..., and they should be the "engine and heart" of that "security valve". 11) Last, I think the intentions in curation are not always, but often, the very best..., time already shows that people use "that power" in a not very nice way, just to bring down some pictures. Of course, in a huge Universe of pics and photographers, someday, that would be a small part of the activity, but now it´s not the case, and that shows a lot, very often. 12) In the end, i just hope that people come here to see quality photographs; great photographers; "hand picked" photographs by well known curators, and not to see popularity or play the "let´s play the curation and have some fun with it". 13) In the very end, i just hope and wish that 1X remain the world "reference" for amateur photography, i just hope and wish that 1X became the world largest and biggest photograph comunity, i just hope and wish that 1X would be the Better photograph comunity in the world, 14) and i think with the necessary tunnings and changes that could be done with the "new (not new anymore) system" , but i have many doubts if that could be done without the "human hand", like until now. 15) what i just wrote can be totally wrong, but it´s just the way i see it, and sure it´s for the best for this great comunity. Thx all.
This discussion about old and new ranking totally goes on my nerves. In each member's profile is visible how many images of his portfolio were published (if that's seen as a criterion for recognition). Primarily it's interesting to have a look on the new published photos, to see what the members have created to meet the high standards of the curation. And these standards for publishing are still very tight. Nothing has changed, exclusively the official curators decide about "publish" or "reject". So I can't see that this site has changed beyond recognition. And why should a ranking based on published photos give hints about the "quality" of a photographer. Is a photographer with 6 years membership and 50 published images more skilled than a photographer with 3 months membership and 5 published images? And who is the better one, the wildlife-photographer with 40 published images or the portrait-photographer with 30 published images? I think the discussion about ranking is misleading.
Well said Hans. If you have to compare ( talking generally, not about you, you seem to be a very decent guy ) compare photographer's skills on shooting the same subject. People really seem to think they can compare by the amount of published images, or favorites/followers. "Judge" the skills of photographers comparing a portrait shot with a landscape shot. Especially regarding the landscapists, what do people think ? We can teleport ourselves to every nice location every single day and shoot ? I don't think so. Especially the ones who do photography as a hobby or semi-professionally while keeping our normal daily job or business. I love shooting landscapes with my partner, but all we get is 1 to 2 days max per week, and we don't always have the time and chances ( weather conditions, etc ) to visit a nice landscape. Since we're based in a city ( Athens ) we have to travel at least 300km ( make it 600km with our way back home ) to visit a possibly interesting landscape, and sometimes it is boring as hell and totally uninteresting. Can I compare myself on technical knowledge, composition, etc with a portrait photographer ? Especially if judging like most people do by the amount of published photos. And why do we have to compare ourselves or others ? Really, why ? If a person who you consider to be a "non-skilled" photographer produces a brilliant photo, you don't enjoy viewing it ? Sure you do. Perhaps some of you may not admit it, but you know you do. If we can't have a peaceful site/community, imagine how difficult achieving REAL world peace is ( even if we could get rid of any scumbags from the politics scene ). peace out!
Hans, for me a member with 50 pictures published and 6 year membership is more experienced than a 3 month newbie with 5 pictures published. No doubt..,it's clear to me because 6 years is a long time enough to improve for everyone who is just looking at the 1x frontpage and trying to understand why there are some pictures published and others not... Also 50 published pictures is quite a nice number..:) and tells more about his work than about his colleague with 5 pictures in the published gallery only. Hans and Bill, I am the one of those older members.., I don˝t know how long you are here guys, but as I came here 1x was showing the TOP quality only. Members had even no possibility to show rejected pictures like we can in our portfolio now. You could find published pictures only in each member's gallery. Do you remember this? Curation is a nice feature indeed but tells nothing about skills of the person who is giving a critics even when he is doing this very often and takes enormous amount of time for this activity. Critic comment is just a subjective opinion, each one is based on how a user is experienced in photography. Personally, I use to look into the gallery of people who are giving a comment or a critics to my shot. I am pretty sure I don't need to explain why...Don't you do the same? My findings of the members curation..., I went through the comments several times and realized that some are very helpful, some are just descriptive telling about what one can see in the picture only, some comments even could mislead a less experienced member sending his image to curators and also for the less experienced readers...some great shots would have never been published if it was up to members and on the other side of coin the Frontpage gallery would have been showing less quality..for sure! Bill, I am also a passionate landscape photographer, not a professional... it is the same with me as you wrote, I have also the same obstacles regarding taking my the time and weather in my photography...I won't write about how many times I tend to visit the same place to get the result I have in my mind...and most of them remain in my mind only without meeting a success..But no one cares, people are interested in results only , they do not care. Its the same in any genre. One would complain that the model don't know to realize the pose or expression, street photographer would complain that there is nothing interesting in the streets...and so on.. I would never dare to tell that I am skilled, never.. I am always learning much and improving...but no one can persuade me that the top members list of 1x as the famous and worlds most exclusive photography site should be based on curation comments of people who are just taking much time to hit the "Publish or Reject" button than many of other experienced photographers can. So I 'm going to finish with the question...no need to answer...everyone knows his own... Why do you think that each one of professional curators here on 1x is a great and experienced photographer? Why did not Ralf and Jacob ask anybody who is less experienced to select images on the Frontpage? Consider please my comment as not offensive, just telling my thoughts... Greetings, Peter
Like you said, curation comments vary in quality and accuracy a lot. Taking personal opinion out of the question, because we all have some things that we prefer and others that don't intrigue us while it may intrigue another person. I'm pretty sure that there are at least 10 people in the curation with excellent technical and compositional knowledge. Do they apply their knowledge to their own shots ? Don't know. Most probably won't. It's not just an experience thing. Some are meant to "teach" others to shoot, and others to do both. Some need more development time, others less. What I know is, for sure, if for example 1x needs more official curators, the new curation theme is a way for them to see who is capable of taking such responsibilities. Regarding the non-published images. This is where at least partially you are wrong. Because like it has been mentioned before, the 1x Curators might publish an image that was initially rejected. So, what you're saying ( that only the published photos are the best photos on the site ) isn't entirely true, because if you take some time looking at various people's portfolios, I guarantee you that you'll find some very publishable photos that haven't been published ( yet, rejected, or never sent for curation for example ).
I agree bill. As far as I can tell the curation system yes is a way to keep users engaged but it is also as you hinted at, a way for the founders to find new curators. As it says in the curator portal, those who reach level 8 have the possibility of becoming an official curator. But how? Just by clicking a lot? That is so unfair! No... it is similar to an apprenticeship where you must dedicate many hours to the practice and reach approval of your master. Clicking is part of it but this is exposing you to thousands and thousands of images to teach your eye. Also you must comment 150 five star comments, this again is a time commitment but also proves your understanding of image and art analysis. Then not to mention the endorsements, this is probably the most difficult. Maybe the lvl 1 endorsements come easy especially if you are a popular photographer, even lvl 2 for some, but unless you truly deserve it you will not receive the lvl 3 endorsements required to advance. I believe that. So this system is a filter. I think very few people will attain lvl 8. Plenty will get 70k points no doubt but only those who earn it will become lvl 8. And even then it only states that you have the 'possibility' to become an official curator. I think this has little to do with how many publications you have but it would certainly help to also be a top class photographer, not only with acquiring points but in the eyes of the founders who ultimately have the decision to promote you to this position. I dont think it is a requirement but probably will be the 'rule'. I would be very surprised to see an unpublished member become a curator just because I think in the eyes of a lot of experienced members that would be ground upon, like Peter.
frowned*. and let me restructure something I said. I think whether or not you are a good curator has little to do with your amount of publication however who the founders chose as official curators are in fact going to be users who are also fantastic photogs for there reason peter and I stated. it is partly a matter of credibility.
Guys, as I've already mentioned, the members curation is a great and very useful feature. I think there is no doubt about its value. This blog theme is about the new awards and it was just an explanation from my point of view to the theme. You are doing a good job guys if you are writing more detailed and helpful comments in curation ! You know, 1X is Ralph's and Jacob's child and they've put a lot of effort into developing and improving the site. I am pretty sure that they interested in members opinion. Peter
The amount of time some of you guys spend complaining and posting here and on the forums regarding the new points system could easily have gone posting curation comments & voting... you would've received your points. Since I'm a purist, I have to agree with Paco. No points, no rankings. Like money, rankings and points tend to make most of the people misbehave, do naughty things, develop some bad character "qualities", perhaps even cheat in one way or another.
Well, many good photographers want recognition for their good photographs, and not for points for hours spent in curation. If you think it does not matter what is exactly appreciated, curation or photography, that's fine, but please allow people to have their priorities, especially to those who pretty much built this site with their excellent photo contributions.
And those who spend hours in curation commenting and clicking will help continue to reinforce what you all have built. Both sides help support and progress this wonderful community. At this point i believe it is a matter of each group being fairly, respectfully, and separately recognized for their work and contribution to it, that is all.
This site has changed beyond recognition.
Sure you want to leave Frederic ? You're saying goodbye, but you're here again :D
Bill, no offense, but your contributions to this site will need to mature a bit before you can talk to Frederic and other old members like that. Looks like you have no idea what he did here and how he did it.
Thank you very much Anna, but unlike you I don't weigh my opinion based no what seems to be your "standards" on who can speak to who and why.
It's not about who it's about how. And some opinions must be earned first, by experience... Try to talk condescendingly and disrespectully to real curators, moderators or Ralf. Maybe then it would become clearer...
I don't think I'm being condescending or disrespectful to anyone. Just pointing the obvious on this occasion. If you disagree with the changes on a site you VISIT ( you don't own it ), you either go away without saying anything and never visit again, or you express your opinion and suggestions/thoughts publicly without sounding whiny, and if some of your thoughts are taken under consideration you stick around and see what develops in the near future. If they reject all of your ideas, etc, and as a "result" you still dislike what the site you once liked has become, you simply say a silent goodbye. You can't force people to do what you want. It is their site. Whoever you might be, even if you're the first member of the site, the one with the biggest contribution, lots of photos, sales, whatever, you're still a MEMBER. The owners change and run the site as they see fit.
This is the time for me to say goodbye. I've been for more than 4 years. I became a member in V1, when this site was a hobby project. I have learned at lot here, I have made friends, ... It was a interesting ride, but since the start of V3 on April 1, 2013, things were no longer the same. I've seen this coming, and perhaps against my better judgment, I have been hoping for a turn for the better. As said, it is time to say goodbye now.
I'm indeed very surprised about the numerous statements complaining the relaunch of the award system. That seems that the old one was perfect or at least much better than the new one. Is that really true? Let's go in detail. A PRO-member was awarded with 40 points without having made a photographic performance. A member without PRO-status had to achieve 40 published images to get 40 points. Furthermore an update of the personal score was awarded, too. In my opinion this is also no photographic performance. And if the number of photographer's followers correspond exclusively with the quality of his images, remains to be seen. I think these points should be taken in account.
A bit more than a year ago, in what is called version 2, there was a ranking system that was based on number of pictures, with some additional points for pictures with a lot of views.
I joined 1x in April 2013 and the only ranking system I know was one that rewarded the following "merits": PRO-membership 40 points, published photo 1 point, participation in the weekly theme contest 1 point, update of the personal score 0.01 points ( I may be wrong), 0.1 points per follower (I may be wrong), days of membership 0.01 points (I may be wrong), written tutorial (I don't remember the points). Possibly there were additional merits but I don't remember all. i think the main rewarded merits were mentioned. So, many of these rewarded merits do not represent a photographic performance. The mere fact that a participation in the weekly theme contest (with an image of more or less good quality) and a published photo were equally rewarded was in my eyes not suitable. But nobody complained about that. But now the relaunch of the system whereby some curators who spend a lot of time in improving the site are rewarded appropriate has caused a wave of outrage. I don't really understand.
Hi, I would suggest to remove all kind of rankings alltogether, but that might not be a very popular choice... Otherwise, why not have two separate rankings: "rank by activity" / "rank by published photos". I think it would be simpler than trying to mix both aspects and find the relative importance of one an the other... Also, I think more people would be happier: those that have no photo published but are very active could be proud to be among the top ones "by activity" and those who have a lot of published photos but don't engage in curation and forums and such could be proud to be among the top ones "by published photos". Wouldn't it be simpler? Or... remove all rankings :)
I agree with you , Paco. One thing is to have "a rank by activity" which is very important to involve people to activity, TO LEARN, in one word to cooperate the improvement of the this site. But I think that people must HAVE A AWARD on it......something must return in order to involve him . Then , as Frederic correctly says under, in his last sentence.......AS IT'S WORLD'S MOST EXCLUSIVE.........we must have a ranking based on published pictures. I am convinct of this and it's speaking a person with only 2 photos published........The level must be and must remain high (even if I see sometimes in the galleries some photo which is deserving more attention.
It seems like these rankings and awards are having a very strong incentivising effect. At least for some (many?). The previous award systems seem to have been more balanced, so that different activities were taken into account. Lately it seems like especially curation is valued: look at the curator levels and this new award system. the number of pictures published has only a relative small effect, as quite a few have managed to reach 10 000 votes during the few months the new curator platform was introduced. If one wants to match this with publications, one has to get 200 publications in the same time period, and perhaps even more as good and excellent comments also count. It means you're creating a curator ranking, and you're valuing that above all. If the aim is to make 1x as "the best curator site in the world", that would be the way to go... otherwise this incentive is confusing, and you will be confusing your members. These incentives should be completely aligned with the strategic direction you want this site to go, otherwise it will just blur your message. If the unique selling point is "1x [is] the world’s most exclusive photo community", then you should have a ranking based on published pictures. Nothing else.
Your last sentence hits the essence Frédéric.
I pretty much agree with your view, Frédéric. But since 1x is also a "community", I guess people want to be rewarded for their implication in it, besides the fact of having photos published. Do you think that my suggestion (see above) could be a good compromise?
Since joining 1x.com, I have witnessed four different award schemes. Each new scheme was introduced to funnel membership activity in a particular direction. I don't participate in 1x.com because of its award system, but since I am automatically part of it, then not surprisingly, I wish to see an equitable system which doesn't put me at a disadvantage. Not surprisingly, I am dismayed to discover that as a photographer, the new system doesn't take account of my previous contributions to this site (the archive of images probably being 1x's most valuable asset) whereby only 'new' published images count towards the ranking. I was under the impression that 1x.com is a photography site, that through a system of selection, hosted images which are generally considered as outstanding. This supposition was first undermined when it started hosting images which failed to make the curators' cut. Now in order to ensure that everyone is a winner, you can make the top rankings without ever having an image selected. The 1x.com 'Top List' shows that the top 5 have between 31000 and 20000 points, albeit between them they have only had a total of 33 images published. On the other hand my 111 published images attract a measly 104 points. How many people log on to see highly rated 'curators'? As stated above, I don't really care for any 'awards' system, but if I am part of the system, then treat me fairly. I can't see myself posting anything new on this site, because it is no longer the home of photography that I once knew. As a final marketing tip, why not just give people points for logging on.
I could not agree more, Ken.
It seems like the helmsmen have lost course...
An other issue not yet mentioned. This new system is favouring photographers , rather fluent in English. And 'Google translate' is not a solution here. Most people will not use it, since such translations are often deficient. So these photographers will not write comments. Photos on the other do speak the universal language of the image
Ken you have it all wrong. "Top List" is a ranking of CURATION POINTS. If you click "community" then "members", then look at "TOP MEMBERS" this is the list you should be looking at which COMBINES both curator points AND published photo points. You will see that these are users who have both elements very high, a lot of curation points and hundreds of published photos.
Believe me Ben, it doesn't matter which list I look at, with 111 published photos and 300+ followers, I have 104 points
If the award system is supposed to recognize effort and achievement, then I can only conclude that photographers are not particularly valued on 1x.com.
Frederic,Jeff, Kenp i agree. Kan mij niet zo goed uitdrukken in het Engels en wordt al ziek van die ellenlange commentaren van mensen die menen te moeten cureren zich zelf graag horen praten zonder zelf een foto te hebben op FP. Ook het populair willen zijn door iedereen maar naar de mond praten dat ze zo goed zijn.Moet er niet aan denken dat die mensen dadelijk onze serieuse fotografen gaan beoordelen. Sorry maar wilde dit even kwijt
Just received the following comment in curation "Massive degradation of skin tone on the knees- doesn't work for me". I despair, the model is wearing grey stockings!!
Filiberto Galli PRO
I feel my idea to be as different as chalk and cheese on the issue. And I am going to explain why. In my opinion it is necessary to look at the controversy from a different point of view. Try to separate 'level' from 'skills as a photographer': whatever your level is (L1, L2, L3....) nobody can doubt whether you are a very good photographer simply leafing through your gallery. In other words, pictures that have been published here on 1x are the clear and firm evidence of your great technique and sensitive eye, speak volumes about your skills: they are your 'PH identity card'. Anything can't misconceive your status, not the least a label such as the one we now find showed next your name. 'Level' is the expression of a different attitude, a sort of concise indicator which try to shortly summaries active contributions to the 1x community and personal photography grandeur. Individual rank is highly influenced by the number of 'curation' which have been given. And I think the 'curation' process can't be underestimate. The strength of analyzing/reviewing other's works is a good way to train ourselves, it can improve our critical approach towards iconography expression and, ultimately, help use to became better photographers. In my opinion the system is well concocted by sensible graduation of the score assigned: the 'single click' is poorly considered whereas a detailed insight in other members' picture is rewarded with 20 marks by official crew.
I have only just become aware of the new award system. First puzzling thing is I can't actually see what points I have, let alone someone else. I also have slipped in the national ranking from 2nd to 13th, plus I have lost the incentive to post high res images in future. I have had 111 images accepted by the curators, but now it seems more important to critique others and collect 'endorsments' by strangers. More Facebook than photography site.
you can view your points and others by clicking 'curate' then go to 'curator portal', click 'top list' to see others points and your curator ranking. I would think the inability to post high res images has to do with a membership issue, not the new system. like Ralf stated below, curation is the reason this website exists the way it does and needs to be more emphasized and balanced in conjunction with your amount of published photos.
What do the national rankings have to do with your incentive to post your photos ? No offense, but whoever takes seriously his ranking, his "image", etc etc and lose their "will" to post photos, then he's making a mistake or quite simply he doesn't really love what he's doing ( photography ). You do it because you like it or because you were #2 in your country's rankings here on 1x ? If that caused you to stop posting here, then what should the others with 0 published images do ? Sorry but this kind of attitude makes me take people lightly ( not seriously ) because it reminds me how we used to act back when we were 13yrs old.
Well Bill, nice manipulation of what I actually wrote. 'Incentive to post high res' becomes 'losing the will to post photos'. You might agree that 'awards' and 'incentive' are not worlds apart. Maybe a more approptiate question might be, 'why get involved with these putty medals'.
So you are separating High Res. photos from Photos ? My question stands still despite the correction, high res. or low res, why change your posting behavior ( from high res. to low res. ) due to the new curation & awards system ?
Ben, if Ralf feels that curation is the main reason for this website, then he should amend his link 'top photographers' to 'top armchair critics'. I don't usually submit images for critique, because, whilst there are some outstanding observations and criticism, there are some abysmal, ill-informed observations which can cause you to lose the will to live. Thanks for the tip regarding the link, where I found that I am now the proud owner of about 140 points, ie a point for every image passed by the curators.
This kind of behavior doesn't help. Irony is never a solution, nor a way to express whatever you want to express.
Sorry, it may be a language thing, but I don't see nor intend irony. Ironic is when you compete in a sport, go to the Olympic games and find that all the medals are awrded to the marshalls and stewards.
Yet you keep up with the irony. First calling the curators "armchair critics". Now the stewards and marshals thing.
Bill, that's is not irony but sarcasm. The way I understand it everybody is now a 'curator'. Previously we had a small selct group of appointed official curators who ensured consistency and high standards. There was a time when this site was about photography, recently it seems to have morphed into a site where having an opinion about photography is in the forefront. Now, that is ironic.
Alright let's relax a bit. Ken, as I stated, I believe he wants a balance between published photos and curation points. Both are meant to increase participation within the community. If you want to be highly ranked (top 10) you must be an excellent photographer as well as an active user in the curation process. If you look at the top members list that holds true. The top 15 users are some of the best photographers on here and also active in the duration process. I see no issue with that. I do not mean to argue, simply to clear things up for you.
Ben, if I am going to be ranked, then I would want to be ranked against my fellow photographers. As part of my photography degree, I did one year of 'visual appreciation', a taught skill. The bulk of public curation on 1x.com is an expression of personal views and tastes, not bona fide informed critique . I don't want to measure my opinions against those of others.
Last comment from me: It's funny how you diss the opinion of your... audience. You keep blaming everybody else but yourself. The members are stupid and don't know about photography ( only you with your degree :-) ). Yet, you compete against the members ( looking for an easy "win" ? or playing with amateurs instead of pros, you should be on the "pro" league like you separate yourself ) Why all the fuss about the ranking is beyond me.
Once again you fail to grasp my point. Curation is a skill just like photography is a skill. Just because somebody choses to join this site, doesn't mean his opinion or view automatically has any gravitas. I can't see where I am blaming anyone for anything, I just disagree with the direction 1x is taking. Finally, if it helps, I started my photography degree, sometime after joining 1x.com, primarily in order to improve my visual appreciation skills. Also nothing to do with 'pro' or 'amateur', since I am retired.
Ken I agree, I believe there should be separate ranking for curators vs. photographers but as of now it looks like the two will be combined for overall member ranking.
So, your opinion has gravity ( actually weight is the word that you were looking for ) while the opinion of the other members is just garbage and should be dismissed. Right ? Sorry, but all I'm seeing is "I" "me" "Myself". Huge ego ?
I fully agree, Ken. All depends what the founders want to achieve, but it seems to me like the message is "1x is the best curation site in the world". There is already the levels for the curators, with the ultimate prize the right to instant publish. Why should they try to mix it with number of publications in the awards? Confusing for me. What they should do is keep members ranking cleanly based on the number of publications, alongside of the curator levels. I would also not try to mix curation and critiques. There is (was?) a separate place for receiving good critiques. Perhaps introducing a specific critics ranking may get that reborn from the ashes.
Bill once again you try and skew what I actually wrote. When I refer to a lack of gravitas (not gravity!) then I don't make a claim about myself nor was I looking for the word 'weight'. A photographers ability is plain for all to see, whereas the curation skills of someone is frequently little more than unfounded opinion.
Kenp has made some good points with solid argumentation yet you insist on trying to devalue his opinion by talking about his ego, which is fairly irrelevant in the whole discussion. With the new awards I've risen in ranking above a number of photographers whore are significantly more experienced and skilled than I can hope to become in the foreseeable future and that doesn't feel right to me at all.
Peter Stahl PRO
I joined l 7 months ago liking what this site had to offer and showcasing many talented photographers Now its about curating instead of photography, Now all you have to do is click the mouse and get moved to the top without ever having a image published. My personal Ranking for Canada which was near the top of the chart has now dropped to the bottom of chart making me an unkown photographer even with numerous publications.. I did enjoyed this site for the weekly theme and the comment interaction amongst the members. Now if you want to be a better known or ranked photographer you are forced to curate even without having expertise in all the numerous categories. Somehow it feels like we are moving away from seeing the talented photographers. Yes there are many excellent curators and maybe they should be separated from the photographers. I'm hoping something will change soon.
Ralf Stelander FOUNDER
Thanks for the great feedback, however I have to disagree, because I think that the people on the top members list are all excellent photographers. Like you say 1x is about great photos and in order to find them we need help from members in curation, which means that curation is a very very important part of 1x and what makes this site stand out against the buddy-voting sites.
Second post here that makes me feel like the user is caring more for his "personal ranking" than what he does. Judging by the avatar I take it you're not a teenager or youngster either. An already famous photographer on 1x has so many followers and his name circulates all over the site & probably the whole internet in various ways, no need to be 'advertised" on any ranking or whatever that might be. You're not forced to curate, you can simply keep on posting photos like you used to do. I'm sure that there'll be at least a few adjustments to the scoring formula and also perhaps some new additions, and perhaps the rankings might get separated ( Photographers rankings - Curator rankings ). If you don't want to judge a specific photo, use the "Curator portal" button, and then navigate to another section of the site ( e.g. New Photos ), then browse to Curation from the COMMUNITY menu and you'll find yourself at another photo to judge/vote on. Curation is a very nice feature of the site as it works both ways... you can help other photographers develop their skills, and the photographers can see what their peers think. There are several other things that can benefit or even arise from the curation feature, but it's kind of off-topic so I won't post them here :-)
I disagree, Ralf. You're valuing mostly quantity of votes. These have such a big impact for a prolific voter, that it overshadows all the other quality measures. An example is my countries ranking. No. 1 has 2 publications and is a L5 curator with one level 1 endorsement. He is above someone with 142 publications and L2 curator.
I read through all the comments till this posting of mine. Things I love about 1x: Its continuously evolving trying to reach a better goal. Or at least I hope so. Its a photography community, something not as common at it used to be on the internet in the past. Its a "photography" community, just re-emphasizing. What I dislike: Catering to social aspects over photography Seeing a level number (L#) , however attractive it is and however nice it feels to have it as high as possible, I feel its demeaning to photographers who share their wonderful work and don't curate. I wish it remains hidden. 1x turning to a social interaction community ahead of a photography community. There already is Flickr and 500px for those. I still see 1x as the least bad of whats out there, its the reason I joined and the reason I'll be here for the foreseeable future. Sorry for this little rant.
Hah, my paragraphs turned to a wall of words.
you can use
for new lines here Abdulmohsen
è molto interessante il sistema ma non è adatto a chi non scrive perfettamente in lingua inglese e spesso per evitare figuracce tralascia di commentare. è possibile commentare nella propria lingua?
For those, who don't weak italian it is difficult to understand you :-) Why not use translate.google.com instead? Easier that one person does, than nearly all others, So english is the best compromise to all?
Bella von Einsiedel CREW
Maybe it is possible to develop an evaluation system of the two systems? From the old system and the new system. So that other activities will be rewarded too. Regarding the comment score: I understand that they want to bring a higher level out, there are many people who write under each image to get points. People who write only one and the same word under each photo. Thus, it is always difficult to evaluate all accordingly. Regarding Bill: "If for example Their accept / reject votes are the same with the Curator's outcome Regarding the corresponding photos They voted on, they shoulderstand get some additional weigh": This would also be a possibility. But maybe then everyone would consider in advance what want to see the Curators on the front page. And to be honest, some pictures on the front page I would never publish. And there are certainly people who would never publish my photos. But that's ok, because everybodys taste is totally different. I would prefer a system consisting of the two systems. Good comments, reviews, activity, voting, and above all the published images. Thus, the whole package of photographers is in the foreground.
I agree here Bella. A combination of both scoring systems I think would please everyone. A scoring system that compares us to the official curators would make users try to 'guess' whether they would be chosen for the front page or not rather than voting through their own eyes, I do not think that was the intention of member curation. We certainly need a separate or updated version of the current member ranking system that weighs published photos much heavier as Hans stated. I think curation points should have little to do with member ranking, still a factor but not as much as it is now. Also as Hans stated, please award all comments and photos with the current reward value since this system took effect, published photos and curation comments. To those of you saying it is currently unfair in favor of those who can click fast and spend hours in front of the computer this is not true. There are only so many photos to curate every day, it takes only a small amount of time each day to go through each batch. Typically about 400 points or so is the most you can get from just clicking in a single day, certainly no more than 500. But this will only get users so far as Bill stated many will get stuck at level 5 because they will not put in the time or effort to get the required awarded comments. I also see the other side of the coin where non English speakers will not be able to advance as well and I feel for them on that matter but we need to use a single language. I think an interesting statistic to provide for users that may impact ranking is their AVERAGE comment score (also taking into account how many comments they have made). So user x has made 85 comments with an average rating of 4.6 and user y has made 100 comments but only an average rating of 3.8, they would get either a lower score or ranking. This would put even more emphasis on making good comments. Or if it doesn't impact score or rank I still think it would be nice to be displayed for each user on their own 'feedback' page. Thank you.
But don't you see the danger of "two" groups? A wise balanced combination of many aspects might be most fair to all, without separating community. I see it :"oh, let them curate and be top ranked, we (here) successful photographers are the true elite, who else cares"?
If combined the photographers are motivated to participate more, what not all do, and the active members are appreciated?
Well, there were already many aspects written about the old and the new reward system. If we see 1x.com as a community of photo enthusiasts (not only photographers) then it seems reasonable to reward the total engagement that a member contributes to the community. This may include submitting images, writing good or bad comments or give a simple voting without comment. Even members which have no single photo published can have the capacity to assess whether a photo is good or bad. I think a fair reward system must take into account the time each of the rewarded activity takes. My personal opinion is that the 50 p/published photo should be considerably increased. This should apply for all those published photos since the relaunch of the reward system (I think 1.1.2014). One could imagine at least 1000p/published photo. This would bring the highly skilled photographers to a considerably higher position in the ranking.
So we have a system of judges judging the judges rather than the images. Of course everyone has an opinion, doesn't mean that it has any substance or weight. If you want to limit the points to photos accepted after Feb 2014, then why not delete all those awarded prior to that date?
I think you misunderstood something. The new system rewards a published photo with 50 points. My proposal was to increase the 50 points to 1000 points (at least for the photos which got published after the relaunch). And to come back to the issue of commenting: In the old system there was hardly a feedback for the photographer in the time span between upload and publishing. And after publishing the comments were (and still are) primarily limited to very short comments like "great" or something else. Rejected photos were seldom commented and have hardly been recognized. Now, after the relaunch the photographer gets a more detailed opinion about his work (at least in some cases, many photos go trough the member curation without any comment). If this comment is useful for you or not, is entirely up to you. I think when you display your photos at an exhibition you will be pleased when a visitor and potential buyer gives his opinion on the quality of your images. And a potential buyer is not necessarily a good photographer. It's sufficient that he likes the image, for whatever reason. So, why ignore the opinions of the community members? They may be potential buyers, too.
Hans Severin PRO
Your going the wrong way. I am a member since 2008. So far there have managed 7 photos of me! In the past my photos were rejected after 2 days and so you really really did not know 'why'. Today, it has become much more transparent. That makes me happy! But now I have to look at me that people judge my pictures and in 'Top Lists' appear who have never shot a good photo in their lives and 'Top Curators' are because they judge on the fast times hundreds of photos . And why do not assess the photographers who have at least 'published' photos in their portfolio? I would rethink this system all over again! greeting ... Ihr geht einen falschen Weg. Ich bin hier Mitglied seit 2008. Bislang haben es 7 Fotos von mir geschafft! Früher wurden meine Fotos nach 2 Tagen abgelehnt und so wirklich wußte man eigentlich gar nicht 'warum'. Heute ist es deutlich transparenter geworden. Das freut mich! Aber nun muss ich mir auch angucken, dass Personen meine Bilder beurteilen und in 'Top Lists' erscheinen, die in ihrem Leben noch nie ein gutes Foto geschossen haben und 'Top-Curators' sind, weil sie auf die schnelle mal hunderte von Fotos beurteilen. Warum lasst ihr nicht die Fotografen bewerten, die zumindest 'veröffentlichte' Fotos in ihrem Portfolio haben? Ich würde dieses System noch einmal neu überdenken! Gruss
You do realize that what you're saying sounds bitter and isn't entirely true, right ? While some people may have 0 published photos, they may have excellent technical knowledge and good ideas. A good photographer isn't necessarily a good judge. And the opposite, a good judge isn't necessarily a good photographer. Plus, there are several excellent captured and edited photos that have and are getting rejected simply because similar photos have been published too many times before and because they have no "story/mood" to tell. Take the "dock, long exposured milky water" theme. I've seen plenty of perfectly or nearly perfectly executed photos of that theme in curation but not getting published because they were too common and had no "foreground interest" to deem them publishable here. The "judges" who simply click reject/accept at blazingly fast speeds will get to the bottom of the list as soon as more people start writing their thoughts and ideas like some people do already. What should be done is a filtering in this case, to separate the ones laying out their opinion and suggestions in the Curate section from the ones just clicking away all the time. And ideally, since some people would like to post more often but they can't because of limited free time or whatever, another good idea would be implementing a software script checking their "Accept to Published photos" ratio. If for example their accept/reject votes are the same with the Curator's outcome regarding the corresponding photos they voted on, they should get some additional weight in contrast to the people who just vote Accept/reject "randomly" just to reach level 5 and then just stick there like they should because they make no useful comments at all and they're just abusing their way up the "ladder".
Bill, by your own definition "A good photographer isn't necessarily a good judge. And the opposite, a good judge isn't necessarily a good photographer." A good photographer is a good judge, else he would never be a good photographer. Now the curators are busy monitoring and judging the public curators. The lunatics have taken over the asylum!
Having published photos weighted more heavily than before seems logical to me, but with this new award system, there is no incentive to comment or write critiques, or write tutorials. Essentially, the whole award system does not reward participation in other areas of the site besides curation.
yep, that should be changed or the impact can be aroused, that former work is not appreciated. The opposite is true of course!
In my humble opinion, the previous awards system was much more complex and reflected member's skills in photography as well as his total activity on 1X. To be honest , the new award system discouraged me a bit.. I would like to see again all those experienced photographers in the Top list who always inspire a visitor of this site. Curation is a nice and very useful feature on 1X but the number of votes or written critics does't tell much about the skills and quality... Totally agree with Adrian, Top list should be based on photography only.
You never hear of an audience going to a theatre in order to listen to a theatre critic do you?
this comparison dear Ken is not hitting the point. This is - for most of us - not only a theatre of good images, but a platform, that is better visited and seen (to the benefit of the images) if it is vivid. And this deserves appreciation too.
Please i share your point of view, that photographers are leveled down without any good reason, but to appreciate the curators who comment and by that help a lot. That needs some tuning in my opinion. But on the other and, would be a more increased participation of those who took benefit from this system (the intense published photographers) be kind too. For the sake of the platform. Don't you think so?
Walde Jansky PRO
Dear all, My opinion on the New Awards System: I tried to find some incentives to comment published photos, to submit photos to weekly theme, to comment them, but there is nothing to support these very important activities... I think the previous awards system was more complex... I understand that you want to support curation and I have sympathy for this, but... this is only a part of all activities here... ...I suppose this is the international website for photographers from all countries, all over the globe (that is great!), but only some of them are native english speakers... they are now favorised, because now is more important to rate photos and add extensive comments in English than to take, improve and upload photos... others would consider this that is not such a complex website as before...Excuse me if I´m too long, open or not very well in English :) walde
I apologize my friend Walde, I used the same words like you...I did not see your comment as I was writing mine...:) Agree with you...
Aida Ianeva PRO
Agree with you Walde!
Vito Guarino PRO
Agree with Walde!!
Ralf Stelander FOUNDER
We might add some additional ways to gain points in the new awards system =)
Adrian Donoghue PRO
Firstly, well done on the updates to the site, looking good, however I believe that the 'top photographers' list should be based purely on photography and should be separate from the curators ranking.
Linda Wride PRO
I agree with Adrian - "top photographers" should be judged on the quality of their images. A good curator has different qualities - the ability to analyse an image and offer constructive criticism. If it's necessary to have rankings, why not have separate lists for published photographers and constructive curators?
Ben Goossens CREW
I agree also.
Fully agree with Adrian and Linda.
Totally agree with Adrian.
Adding my vote here
I fully agree with Adrian.
Simona Forte PRO
And if it goes towards curator score, why? Also, will prior comments we have made that received 4 stars but not a gold star from curators be given 5p or does that take only take effect on any comments made now. I think we have put a lot of effort into some of those comments and should have the proper award for them.
50p for published photos... will that go towards ones member score or curator score? Assuming they are two different things.
Sorry, I think this is not a fair System. This is a Site about Photography and not curation clicks. When I now see how much I am up in this Top list, this is not correct. I have not earned this status in my eyes! Just because I curated a lot and have not published one picture yet. For me the Top member page is to find the real cool photographers. Anyway thanks for all your dedication and work in to this site! Just my 2 euro cents Thomas
I'm with Thomas on this. I love 1x for the photography and top notch photographers here.
I agree with this also. The new curating system can be fun and interesting, but I would rather see rankings based on photography rather then being able to spend a lot of time curating photos.
I agree, while curating can be helpful, needed, and can be fun - it is NOT the main thing this site is for. there is too much weight put on curating now. there are excellent photographers who do not enjoy writing long elaborates, and they will lose their positions because of that. separate top photogs and top curators - and it will get back to right balance. Cheers!
Piet Flour PRO
curating and photographing are indeed 2 very different option, skills, … Ideal is to separate them. If you want to mix them, then I also feel in the last version of the ranking, there is at least, for the moment, a wrong balance between both aspects. How important curating is for the site, how much you want to appreciate the efforts made by the people helping the community as a whole … I feel for the outside world visitors come and take a look to the site , not to find good carat ors, but good photographers and first of all good images. I don't know if people look at those ranking … but anyway … photographers with a lot of selected images should n't end at the bottom of the list just because they prefer shooting than curating, or don't mind about looking to others work. To complete the reply … for Frédéric ... I sincerely think most people with more than 10000 curation did not make them after the system started. Those are most people who already participated in the curate zone long time before it was highlighted by the last evolution. What changed is that now they are more pushed to also write comments with their vote, and that it is visible for the others who does a lot of member curating.
I agree! This is not a very fair system. While I agree that a lot of the top curators are good photographers too, not ALL members curating are contributing to the site as passionate photographers. It's just too easy to rack up points by clicking on the PUBLISH/REJECT button. Only today, I've spent a good part of my afternoon trying to bring my points up and then I realized how ridiculous this was! While I realize the importance of the curation process and truly appreciate that you've incorporated all members as part of the process, it's not why I joined this site. I hope that the moderators re-think this new process and come up with a solution that is equitable to those who are working to make this site the prestigious photography group that it is.
At the very least, if this system will continue on, it would be nice for those who have had published photos in the past get extra points to up their ranking once again. It's just a bit unfair that one's ranking slips because they have not curated as much as the person who has a lot of curation points but not even one published photo.
As Piet mentioned, the outsie world is coming to 1x to see great photos and top photographers and not to see great comment efforts. I hope 1x would still be primarily a photos site, honouring his best photographers.
I agree at all. Its a photography site. And at the same time, it would be great to see a more increased participation of those who took benefit from this system (the intense published photographers) . This would be an appreciation to those, who produce the traffic here that makes the images even more popular.
But again, i agree, the actual state of evaluation seems to need tweaking. The active volunteers are leveled down as well as many successful photographers. That can't be.