Hi everybody,

 

I am not sure if this is the right forum for my concern, but as issues of curation and critique have been discussed here recently I give it a try and hope it will be taken up.

 

During the last few weeks I observe a growing number of curation comments that give very detailled instructions of how to achieve certain changes to the photo that the author of the comment thinks will improve the photo. In some cases this includes instructions about what combination of buttons to press and what values to enter in Photoshop.

I ask myself whether this is really what curation comments are meant to be here.

 

In my understanding in curation votes and comments we deal with pictures which their authors consider ready for publication, and we contribute our observations to the decision whether the picture really should be published or not. Therefore the analysis of the picture as it is should be the main concern of what we are doing there.

 

Certainly there are cases in which it can help the authors of pictures to receive a hint what might improve the chance for publication. But I think giving full tutorials of what to do and how to do it in detail using what software takes it too far. The authors of the pictures receive the names of the authors of curation votes, and if they need any further help they can ask for it.

 

My main concern in this matter is that giving full tutorials for pictures in curation without having been asked for it might in some cases not pay enough respect to the decisions made by the authors of the pictures. I came across one example of a portrait where the whole scene obviously had been arranged for the shooting. A curation comment started to explain in detail how in Photoshop one element of the picture could be erased and how the space could be filled with structure from the context. Here it seems to me that not enough respect is paid to the decision of the photographer to present an original photograph to curation and not a digitally altered one.

 

Another (minor) concern is that less experienced members might expect that if they exactly follow the instructions, their picture will be published.

 

I would like to know how other members of 1x.com feel about the matter and whether some clarification might still be needed about what is the purpose and limits of curation votes in relation not only to the critique forum (as discussed already), but also in relation to tutorials.

 

Cheers, Andreas

 

I have to say, Andreas, I fully agree. There is one member here who i will not name who gives extremely lengthy Photoshop tutorials with very broken English. Not only are they not helpful (because we can't understand them), but they demean the artist and artwork.

 

Each photographer here, at least a vast majority, are uploading work having very carefully though out each element. For example - "there is an overexposed highlight reflecting off of the rock...please follow these steps to correct it..." - have you thought for a moment that we wouldn't have uploaded it if we thought this highlight would compromise the piece? The critic must realize maybe there is a reason for this and there is artistic intent involved. Try to think from their perspective how they envisioned specific aspects to enhance the composition, please do not treat them like a blind novice.

 

Excuse my frustration, but this must end.

I fully agree with Andreas and Ben. Those tutorials are indeed very irritating and should be stopped. I get the impression that those lengthy affairs were often rewarded, which is rather unfair since they are useless.

Andrreas and Ben, funny you should mention that, because in my own experience, that's the easy way to get an awarded comment.

Anything else, may get a check mark or nothing, but lengthy instructions on how to fix an image, I thought, was the way to get awards, even what the moderators wanted.

Could someone explain to me what is one supposed to do to get a helpful comment that is long, and worthy of a star, without giving PS instructions or get into the philosophical rants of what the subject may have or may not have been thinking at the moment, which is totally absurd to me and seems to be a popular way to lengthen the comments.

 

Hi Fabs, here is a blog post featuring some tips from Abdul (A Allmula). Helpful but certainly not the "RULES." Hope this helps.

 

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"Hints for writing comments in curationPosted 2 months ago

Big thanks to A Almulla for contributing with these great hints for writing critique! If you follow these guidelines you will surely get a lot of awarded comments in curation which means +20 points and the chance to reach the highest levels.

 

What is critique?

 

Critique is not about only finding fault in an image. Its about looking at an image and deciding whats good and whats bad about it. Keep in mind what you write is "your" opinion and what is wrong for you can be right for many others.

 

As such I find images fall under two categories

 

More good than bad elements

More bad than good elements

The main emphasis is “good elements.” If you see a bad picture and can’t find the good elements thats your fault, not the photographer’s, his fault was including more bad elements. So when you critique include whats good. Actually start with whats good.

 

How to approach an image:

My approach has three parts which I loosely follow. It helps me to have a structured approach and after a while I just go through them without thinking twice, it just becomes natural.

 

Technical aspects

Composition

Impression

Even with this list I'll write whats good first. Everything good about technical aspects and composition. Once done with those I'll write what I feel looks wrong. So it ends up looking like this:

 

Good technical, good composition aspects. Then what needs fixing in technical or composition.

 

Technical Aspects:

 

Focus - Is the image in focus. One issue I see a lot is not understanding focus. What do I mean by it ? Not all images need to be tack sharp, some are good being “sharp enough.” If you don’t understand what I mean then please go look at pictures taken a few decades ago. They are sharp enough. Some compensate lack of sharpness by over sharpening their image which just makes it uglier.

Depth of field - Is it shallow or deep.

Exposure - Is it over or underexposed. Some images work well being over or underexposed and some don’t. Is it a long exposure.

If its a colour photo then is it fine, over or under saturated or is it right for that image.

Is there a tint to the colour.

Black and white pictures don't have distracting colours and lets you focus on content more.

Hows the contrast ?

Composition:

Subject of interest or main subject. Call it whatever but its the first thing that grabs your eye when you see the image or do your eyes jump all over the place and can't identify one.

The infamous "rules" that are more guideline than rules. As an example the rule of thirds, the golden triangles, the golden spirals, etc. Have they been applied. Do we need to apply them. Have they been broken and its better not to follow them.

How is the foreground, middle area and background? Are they even ? Are they cluttered? Too empty, a dead space? Well balanced in content ?

How is the horizon. Is it tilted just by looking at it ? I've seen a dumb comment once where someone put a paper to his monitor to say its crooked my a few millimeters. If it "looks fine" then it is fine. If it looks crooked then it is crooked. Don't grab rulers to look for faults.

How are the leading lines ? Does the image have any ? Do they complement our subject ?

Are there are other lines to interpret. Horizontal, vertical, sloped or curved. This might be tough for many to pick out and interpret.

Hows the perspective. Does it suit this image and complement it ? This might be another thing thats tough to grasp so pass on it if you can’t pick it out.

Impression:

 

This is the toughest part and its here where your comment will shine. The technical aspects and composition will help in conveying your impression. If something was off in the technical or composition parts it would be a good time to suggest them. After writing everything thats good I start a new sentence with something like "However I think you could improve on" or "Yet I feel" and state what could be fixed. Take the circumstances the image was taken in. Asking someone to go right or left while on a ledge is stupid. If the image was taken at the South Pole and you suggest the photographer should move here or there well he may not have another chance to get there. YOU may never go there. Be rational.

 

An image may have everything right about it and be bad and the other way round is true. A few pictures have so many faults that they all work well together.

 

Not all pictures tell a story. A photograph is just that, a photograph. A macro shot of the head of a housefly can look great for all the detail and colour but may not have a story.

 

A common shortcoming is interpreting mood. The sensation you get when seeing an image. Did that picture of a giggling baby make you happy? How about that picture of war, did it make you angry or mad ?

 

Did you like the picture or not ?

 

Close your comment with something constructive. I'd love someone telling me I did something wrong then gives me a pat on the back for doing something right. Wouldn't you?"

Frankly, I wish 1x had a checkbox where you could indicate that you were not looking for critiques, during curation or elsewhere.

 

While this may come off as arrogant, I suspect there are a great many photographers on 1x who, as others have pointed out, do not just throw images on the wall to see what sticks. They work on their images for a while, and the decisions about all the elements are considered and deliberate.

 

For the first five years of my photographic "career" I was desperate to get critiques. But gradually I developed my own style, and the critiques lost their value. It's not that I became some super-duper artist; it's just that I knew what I wanted to express in my work.

 

If someone wants critiques to improve their photography in general, great. But if they want them to improve their chances of getting published on 1x, they are barking up the wrong tree.

 

Thank you Fabs, for sharing this experience. I did not know that PS instructions are awarded by the moderators in curation and seem to be what they expect.

Off course many of us could do that - for myself it would be no problem at all to write lots of such comments.

 

But still I will not do that without having been asked by the author of the picture, because I am afraid that it might interfere too much with the creative freedom and autonomy of the authors and because many people here have enough PS skills themselves and just don't need such instructions.

 

Concerning alternative ways to receive awarded comments: I have received my very few awards for comments so far for in-depth analysis of the picture and its composition, including observations why the composition works or why not. This is what I always try to do and in some cases it seems to have been enough to the point for an award.

 

I would be grateful if someone from the moderators could explain their point of view about what a good curation comment should do - and whether this should include PS instructions, and if yes, why so.

 

Cheers, Andreas

 

(PS: I have been writing this while Ben and Tom posted their contributions)

Tom, I am with you in really not looking for critiques. And I don't think that is being arrogant, but if you have found your style and know what you want, it is OK not to want critiques that could be misinformed and totally out of the left field.

I was one of the Publishers of a critique forum for a fee years, and I had to do so much critique, mind you, from a very narrow point of view, that I became sir of saturated with it and understood, that other from being subjective, in many occasions it was useless.

There is two ways in how to improve an image:

Before capture: Next time, move the POV, check the light, avoid distractions etc.

Too late for this picture. Move on and wait for the nest one.

After the fact: Cropping and use of PS is the only thing that can be done to improve something already done IMO.

Pointing out the focus, sharpness, exposure, I would think that would be obvious just looking at the image. Should I really point out what is obvious?

There are many accomplished photographers here, but is is obvious, by the images uploaded that there are a lot of novices throwing pictures to see if they stick.

A comment praising what is good in an image and what I would have done at capture or after if the image were to ben one has not gotten me anywhere, so obviously, the moderatos want something else. One thing, they like lengthy comments. A short to the point comment does not seem to be valued and I have seen a two sentence critique that really nails the points. But no, you have to write and write and then write some more.

So if you do not get into psychoanalyzing (helpful?, not really) or improving after capture tips, what is there to do?

At this point, I am really fur stated with critiques in curation. I surpassed my points to move up a level (not that this is really important because I know I all not go further that that) because I need "that" one awarded comment.

And although I have tried, the amount of available time and my approach to critique seems to get on the way.

I am ready to give up and move into other parts of the community, or just playing the clicking game when I have the time and feel bored.

 

I appreciate the Blog post, seeing before, written my views similar to that many times, but if the moderators feel that most of the photographers here have worked hard and are fully satisfied with their picture, it is totally absurd to tell them that their exposure or sharpness is fantastic. Hello?????

 

Sorry about the rant, but I am trying to find a compromise where I can really enjoy the curation part of the community, which I am not.

 

Great day everyone.

Fabs, I have had the same experience with the very few comments I left on images during the voting process. A couple of times, I left a 2 or 3 sentence comment, explaining what appealed to me about the image, and these were marked with a 1 or at best a 2. The third time it happened, I was done with adding comments on the voting, so now if I really like an image, I find out who the photographer is, and write a comment in the regular comments section.

 

I am also in the Level 5 purgatory, where I mostly view images when I'm bored or while watching TV on my other monitor. I will never get an endorsement for my critiques, and I have 7,500 images to go.

 

The answer, as you rightly point out, is to move onto other parts of the 1x community that are more rewarding.

I agree. Recently posted this on the support forum:

 

"I (incorrectly) thought that the five star grading was for the use of the original poster to say if they thought a comment was helpful to improve their photography. I am not happy that this is open to anyone including those who can't be a***d to make a comment themselves."

 

I have also just reached L5 because it helps pass the time but will probably do the same and go direct to the photographer if I see a good image. At least if someone disagrees with a comment they can reply, instead of hiding behind a mouse click.

 

In most cases less is more and a 2 line comment that address the main issue is far better then NOTHING so why should we be penalised. On one picture that did not even appear I made a comment to tell the photographer something was wrong. My reward was a big "no entry" symbol next to the rating of 1/5 also in red plus a 20 point deduction for making an irrelevent comment. ! Clicking on the image still shows it is either missing/deleted/or still an issue. I probably won't bother next time .

 

The only reason to continue with curation is that I am (I think) starting to understand genres such as street but would never comment as it is just not my "thing". and red is not my colour....

Hi Andreas

 

I am just a regular member so what I say is all on my own.

 

For commenting, I had read the text Ben posted, at length, did help

have an idea what was wanted. From there I use my common sense

and try giving a critique that will fit the image.

 

First I comment on the overall image and the strong points, rarely will I go into an extensive critique of something that is all good, just favor. My strong point is more technical than aesthetic and can suggest how to compose. When I see areas that can be helped they are mentioned separately. As far as showing, instructing etc PhotoShop, again is a matter of common sense. When you look at an image you see the level of expertise the person has. When its a minor point or a slight different crop, saturation, contrast etc. there is no need to go into a lengthy explanation. You say that it needs to be corrected and assume that someone making that strong an image knows how to process.

 

For me it is rewarding receiving feedback, receiving positive comments from my suggestions etc. It is much appreciated and my main reason for commenting is sharing what I know. The difficult part is to do so without offending. Also the critique should be to help out and not to show what you know.

 

Critiques making descriptions of the image, talking about detail, light, mood, I find much more difficult that the ones I make. I will give you four examples of persons doing such critiques and when I see one, read every word, Yvette Depaepe, Anne Worner, Piet Flour and Ben Rea. Mentioning four of many on the site. I feel their critiques have no wasted words or creative ways for making the critique longer.

 

After a while, you will see the people that consistently give good advice and some that do not. Regarding critiques, also should mention many that are good with very few words, cover all that is needed. Members tend to give those a low score, don't know why? I try correcting by giving what its deserved.

 

This is no easy subject like anything subjective. It is a good thread and I am sure positive things will come out of it

al

 

… btw I started doing this post and had to stop and start, just read other comments following Andreas and can see their point of view.

 

I've always seen critique as a section for folks looking to improve their photography. Curation comments tend to be an analysis of the image which may or may not include points of criticism/praise. That's just my opinion, which is exactly the problem...

 

I think everyone has a different idea of what these comments are 'supposed' to involve. Photoshop tips? Phylispophical analysis? Compositional critique? All of this?

 

We are lacking a clear intent and context of content of curation comments.

 

I think we need to answer these questions and find some sort of consensus. Then make this consensus CLEARLY available to all members.

 

Thank you, Ben. I think this would help a lot - and the advice of Abdul which you posted earlier is a good point of departure.

 

----

 

Part of the search for this consensus should also be the question whom we think of as the main reader(s) of curation comments. In my opinion we have to think in two different directions. Here I disagree with some of what has been written earlier here:

 

1. Certainly somehow the curation comment is directed to the person who posted the picture. For this person the comment may be helpful or not - and if it is not helpful it may at least give some hint where there are differences between the intention of the photographer and what other people see in the picture. In any case the author of the picture should feel respected by the way the comment is written.

 

2. According to my understanding of curation comments, other members giving curation votes are at least as important as readers of the comment. If it is a good comment, it can help others to see aspects of the picture which they would not have seen themselves while looking at the picture for some seconds. A good curation comment can have quite some impact on the voting. In one example I observed that after a good curation comment had been posted, the result of the voting changed by 20 %, which makes quite a difference.

 

Cheers, Andreas

Negative comments in curating can also influence vote count - this is one reason I feel it is important to point out the positive points and then gently suggest improvements.

Let me ask this, should we even be suggesting 'improvements'?

 

If someone is submitting a photo to critique, we understand that they are looking for ways to improve a particular piece and that this piece may be later re-worked to include suggestions from other members.

 

If someone submits a photo to the curators - i feel we may justly assume that the artists considers this a final rendition of a particular work and that we should analyze it as such. As i have stated elsewhere - if someone has uploaded a photo and sent it to curation, don't you think they are well aware of each aspect of the photo? There is an overexposed highlight coming off the rock in the foreground for a reason! The artist wanted it there because they felt it would enhance the composition. Otherwise they would not have uploaded it, or they would have removed it in processing.

 

Does this make sense? So i feel suggesting improvements needs careful delivery and it needs to be supported with purpose and why/how this change would enhance the given composition. And make it CLEAR that it is simply your subjective opinion, not a fact.

Problem with most curation comments is, that we are reading what we are seeing - which isn't very interesting, but cynically speaking it gives your comment lots of words which is good to get awarded. Then there is often a lot of talk about the technical side of the matter - also not all too interesting, unless it leads to suggestions to get a better picture.

 

I never write about what I see or about technical stuff. I tell the photographer what I feel, when seeing her of his photo, and why it is doing something with me, why it touches me. That matters to me and not the so called photographic rules.

 

Perhaps the curation comments will be more interesting if the writer argues why a photo should be published and in such a way that it might persuade an official curator to publish the photo. It doesn't have to be a lengthy story and it shouldn't be awarded because it is long.

 

If one wants to tell a photographer how to improve a photo one can always sent a private mail.

Even I, that I am a novice and came here with the expectation of receiving feedback from the great photographers of the community, feel that those critiques are useless (I don't even use Photoshop ...).

I think the most useful critiques are those who talk about the feelings of the commenter when seeing the picture. I think these critiques are useful even for the professional, even when they come from a novice, because I think everyone, professional and novices, when we post a photo are looking to transmit some kind of feeling or message, and this is the main feedback we are expecting from observers.

After that, for me, it is very helpful to know why the commenter thinks this feeling/message is achieved (or not), and here is where I think come into play technical aspects. This is usually (for me) the most difficult part, in fact, many times, I don't know why a photo works or not...

In fact, one of the things I don't like of the critique forum is that we are forced to write a description of the photo being posted, which I think can cause a prejudice on the commenter, when often I just want to know what feelings the image causes.

Hi Ben

 

Quote from Ben…..

"If someone submits a photo to the curators - i feel we may justly assume that the artists considers this a final rendition of a particular work and that we should analyze it as such. As i have stated elsewhere - if someone has uploaded a photo and sent it to curation, don't you think they are well aware of each aspect of the photo? There is an overexposed highlight coming off the rock in the foreground for a reason! The artist wanted it there because they felt it would enhance the composition. Otherwise they would not have uploaded it, or they would have removed it in processing."

 

I understand what the basic idea you are bringing across but I don't understand fully. A novice can look at an image and see it all perfect, first page material. Then anyone with experience can explain why the image is not working,

 

If I see a large white area blown in a "normal" image or branches going through a birds head in the background, I can not assume it was done on purpose. The person went as far as getting the bird sharp, was happy and could not care about anything else. My first images were just like that, thought that just having a bird in frame sharp was an accomplishment. Now we see routinely, gorgeous birds sitting on a perch not making it. It takes more, an unusual pose, behavior, light conditions etc.

al

 

Yes, I suppose it's a case by case issue then.

 

Which makes me realize something: Each image may need a different type of critique or analysis depending on many factors, we must be the judge when it is appropriate to give such comments.

Hi Ben

 

I think it is a mater of common sense and sort of hard to apply rules to cover all situations. As you mention all images are different as are the persons making the image. Having different approaches to commenting, seems to work well. I like seeing different approaches, all being the same would be dull.

al

I don't think it all needs to be the same, agreed. I enjoy the variation as long as it is polite and well thought out.

 

But can we all agree now that curation comments are not supposed to be a photoshop tutorial?

 

;)

Hi Ben

 

Do have to agree on that point. All has to do with how much, extremes are usually not good :)

al

Thank you everybody for contribution to bring the discussion this far!

 

Yes, I agree that it is good to have variations. Photos are different and commentors are different, and it depends on the combination of photo and commenter what are the best contributions this commenter can give to this very picture.

 

 

In this respect for example I am different from Susanne. I normally write also about what I see, because my impression is that we see different things in a photo as different persons. Often from reading the comments that are already there I get the feeling that the commentors did not see something that I myself conceive as important to understand and evaluate the picture. Sorry, Susanne, if this is boring to you and to other people who see the same :)

 

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Can we - along with agreeing that variation is good - agree at the same time that we want to keep in mind and further elaborate the distinction between three genres wisely offered by 1x.com as different ones: curation comment, critique, and tutorial.

 

- Critique is mainly to assist fellow photographers who know that their photo is not yet ready for publication and who explicitly ask for advice and observations by others.

 

- Curation comments take serious the situation that the photographer submits the photo to publication. Therefore they should mainly contibute to the discussion whether to publish the photo or not. By doing this they should try to respect decisions made by the photographers and always also mention what is good.

 

- Tutorials are mainly the genre that gives in-depth information about the making-of of a picture and about technical matters including post processing. There are good reasons why the examples used for tutorials are photos by the author of the tutorial herself or himself, that already have been published.

"A good comment during the curation process can take many forms, so it is hard to define exactly what that would be. One thing might help is this. After you write one, read over what you wrote. If you read that comment on one of your photos would it in any way help you? "

 

-Phyllis Clarke

 

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Thank you!

 

/End Thread