Hi all,
in the last months I saw many pictures from Indonesia users that are very (often embarassingly) similar to one another. Here are the types I remember:

1. Boy with flying pigeon and cage, indoor.
2. Guy(kid/elder) picking a rooster.
3. Kids catching a ball in the mud.
4. Fisherman on a canoa throwing the net against the sunset.
5. Kids playing with kites in the forest.
6. Cow racing.

Is Indonesia only about this? It's a rethoric question, of course. But why the very same subjects for such a large and populated country?
By now, it looks to me that these are recurrent situations where photographers go there to take their pictures in the same way, and maybe paying for that - I hope not though.

But it's not just about Indonesia, don't get me wrong. Therefore I ask, is originality still a value for a photographer? And for 1x?

i think some of it is a photography session that they do.... looks staged usually but very good light
like studio shots but so many documentaries are staged or arranged in any cases,,,,,
many travel photographers have staged images and pay for that........
its the reality

Sasson,
I know that, but I don't want to start another candid vs staged thread, I wanted to discuss about originality and its value in photography and here in 1x.
I believe it's important in photography, one can stage something and yet being original in theme. One can touch a known theme and yet be 'fresh', bringing something new....but how can I distinguish one photographer from another if they have cloned-like shots?

Just to point it out, I have nothing agaist those shots, they are good and pleasing to the eye. I am just saying that since they are taken by several different photographers, it gives the impression that it's something that many people can capture- therefore it loses much of its charm. It's like going in Venice and shooting a gondola. First time you see it "oh that's nice", second one "nice", third one "ok, it's a gondola so what". Originality.

I also noticed... it's odd.

I think the photo screeners have to be more selective!

even with the strict selection there aren't many original images in 1x. its just not easy to be original

There was a thread a couple of weeks ago - locked and removed finally with light speed - exactly regarding this matter.
An indonesian photographer was claiming that all these published pictures are from the so called indonesian "salon photography" - photographers are coming together and are paying the people to be actors in these wonderful landscapes / surroundings.
Although this is the same as renting a model for a shooting it leaves IMO now a more negative aftertaste for the (western) people as these pictures are showing exactly the cliché that a lot of (western) people have about Indonesia.
It has nothing to do with the real life there.
Being impressed about the light and scenes when I saw these pictures first time here - I think almost 1 year ago - I'm nowadays not even open the thumb when I see this kind of pictures.

One more thing to my thoughts above :
I'm feeling somehow cheated when I see these kind of pictures.

There is some photographic style that is different from a culture to another..
How about some western style shots?
Like somebody walking on a road disappearing into the horizon
Person walking on an otherwise empty street, in b&w
Hay balls on the fields
Over saturated landscapes
That lonely tree..
Hmm, forgot.. ships on stormy seas..

I think it is a strange discussion. Most of us have some kind of own style when looking at published work here. Very few photographers seem to be in control of shooting a lot different kinds of shots. Let the indonesians shoot their way! A fantastic country by the way!

i think it is because of the photo sessions but i saw similar images from Israeli photographers but not in great of a number
what Lars says i agree as well... but those western images still look different from each other... its not the Indonesian style its just a photo session of some Indonesian photographers that happen to participate in 1x ... same rooster same background same man and so on....
i must say that i am impressed by the level of those photo sessions.. i hope the people get paid well
like always its up for the screeners to decide :)
as for myself i try to submit only one image from a person even though others that look a bit different have a fair chance... my portfolio will look so boring if i had the same kind of images....

i want to keep my work original and developing and that is what the topic fabio started that photography should be kept original as a value... he wasnt referring only to Indonesian photography.... he looks at it as a concept and i agree that originality is very important

Yes, clichés. That is the point, especially when you mention ships on stormy seas, which, let's be real, everybody took when floating on a ferry.. (j/k) :D

Indonesian case is pretty clear now, and that is why I brought it as an example. But I'm also bored to see those men disappearing in a foggy alley, very strong vignetted landscapes coupled with fake birds added in PS, and so on. They don't even try to fight the cliché appearance, they just embrace it. It's sad to my eyes.

Maybe it depends on the way one is living photography, but to me one has to seek "the shot". The one for which he can be remembered, so to say. Something really outstanding, that stays in the mind and can't be forgotten that easily. If one succeed to make one or more shots like this, then he own a photographic identity. Those shots can't be obtained by another photographer, he has some sort of natural copyright. This is the fundamental difference between a beautiful cloned photo and a beautiful original one. And it's a great difference.

Good point.

... why put the anathema on specific photographs/photographers whereas many of us are guilty of the same ? Furthermore I believe originality is something wished by a very minority of people. Let the other enjoy...

More generally I think it is counterproductive to blame the lack of originality. Why not instead try to promote what you find original ?

Nice words, I´m waiting to ... :)

Glad you brought this up Fabio.
I am baffled as to how people cannot want to make their own images. Being inspired is fantastic, but wanting to make a copy of what has been taken? The same photo with your name on it? I cannot understand that at all. Be inspired to add to your own style, not to change it to someone else's.

And what on earth is with all the images with the same black and white silver FX tones?!?!?!?!?!??!?!

GRRRRR.... Sheep the lot of you!


Great words Fabio! Your images were the first I ever saw on this site, and I still remember them very well.

Very misleading statement - sheeps are smart: http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/s1982024.htm
Was that what you wanted to say about copycats?

Lars :-)
(Shropshire-breeder)

Almost everything has been done before, very very few photos are really original. Also it's practice in all forms of art that new artists "stand on the shoulders" of their predecessors.

I think in all kinds of arts and behaviours there´s a large amout of copying and imitation at the early stages of creativity and knowledge. Students copy and study their masters and sons copy their parents behaviour. Creativity comes with the hand of freedom, mental freedom, then you become an adult, sometimes associated with a sense of rejection of what previous poeple did before.
Imitating styles can be a good thing if it leads , via knowledge, to your own style creating, thinking or just living.
Personal needs vary a lot from one to another, some are just happy taking the same good images we all love and some they need a more personal way. Meanwhile you are happy...
I like to see orininal images too but I think originality nowadays lasts only until someone see your work on the net and begins to do the same just because he likes what you do.

True. But we are not talking about being influenced by other people (this is sound) - we are talking about having nearly identical shots for different photographer's portfolio. You can touch known themes and yet being 'fresh', new, different in a way. OneExposure, in one of its section, calls us "Artists". Well, I don't consider myself an artist or a creator, but even so, an artist can be influenced by other artists but it doesn't just copy other artists' work, it wouldn't be an artist otherwise, right?

I'm talking to make 1x a better place, I have a constructive attitude, I'm not just complaining. A shot could be technically flawless and yet being very bad, practically useless - originality just can't be ignored when judging the value of a photograph. And I'm sure this is obvious for many of us, yet some of the most clamorous clichès get published every now and then, and I don't see why.

wew..I wondered why no Indonesian here to give any comment here.. :)
as far as I know..about 'similarity' from one photograph to one other is basicly comes from two things..

first, just like Sassin Haviv said that the photographs came from the same photo session..
but, number two, we are, (as I admit) lack of creativity because some of us just (let say) newbie on this field..

for me, number two is the strongest point for a reason..
many of us are not yet 'mature' in photography, to make a good photograph we often to looked at the good photograph before and then try to 'remake' it..or if in one photo session, we often look at senior photographer who make a better photograph then try to copy it..

there are many, (much perhaps :) ) photography ideas in 1x that amaze me..when I see that picture, I wonder when Indonesian photographer could make this kind of photograph..not to copy it..but to adapt the idea of the photograph..

from my side as Indonesian, I believe that we need more time so we can explore ourselves in photography..photography is just an expensive thing to us, but it just grow and developed rapidly in here as more modest price of digital camera..
so, humbly I ask to Ix members to make us to be more mature or creative in photography

Look here: http://10711.portfolio.artlimited.net/

We don't discuss the screening process in the forum, it's against the rules because it creates a bad atmosphere. If you have concerns please contact me directly in a private message.

Probably because it's Monday morning but I fully agree with Ralf on this one. All we do is trying to interpret the same old clichés in a new way.

However the issue with the Indonesian photos we're discussing here is that they aren't clichés, they are virtually identical. When I see the first pair of oxen driven towards my face I say "wow" but when it happens the second time, and taken by another photorapher, I start wondering if there's something wrong with Indonesian street traffic. Same perplexion when I see kids playing in a misty grove again and again with the same light taken by different photographers.
Staged workshop photos shouldn't be necessarily rejected, but there's a fair chance that seeing too many of them becomes boring.

Hi Rezkie, for goodness' sake, I didn't mean to generalize to ALL Indonesian people - this wouldn't even cross my mind. I was talking about most Indonesian members here in 1x. It's clear that you (Rezkie), don't show those overused subjects listed in the topic, that you're searching for something different, original. That's good. The photos you have in your 1x portfolio talks for you.


Not my intention to spread a bad atmosphere, Ralf, I really like this place and the work you guys do everyday is just great. I'm thankful for that, as I think everybody here is, take this for granted.
Ok, we can't talk about screening process and we won't. Let's stick to originality and the value it has for a photographer and for 1x in general.

With the word "original" in photography I don't obviously mean something out of our imagination. Everything that is on this planet has been already photographed. I'm talking of something that surprise/stimulate/provoke us in a new, fresh way. Something that works and that hasn't been done before, that is originality. Cliché means something that you expect, that you've already seen and has been already photographed in a very similar way by a great number of other photographers. It's something clearly recognizable if you have seen a fair amount of pictures.

Said that, those Indonesian studio shots are not just clichès, they are practically identical, you're right about this.

Clichés can be good. I wonder if we could do in photography what Tarantino does in his movies. Take the conventional approach to a conventional motif and add a certain element that turns the whole thing upside down. For instance, re-make the settings - color, light and all - of the "Afghan girl" but let her wear a burqa. Take the one-millionth shot of a sad girl behind a rainy window and make sure it looks like a prison window. Take a nude hermaphrodite and make him pose like Marylin Monroe. Take a shot of Yellowstone and make it look like a bill-board in the middle of an ugly industrial area. Take a shot of a big-eyed malnutritioned African child and let it hold a bloody machete. It's very thought-inspiring, actually...

Hehe, great ideas Balazs, can't wait to see them in screening :-)

Balasz, how naive of you, giving your idea publicly and for free...now expect a nude hermaphrodite wearing a curly blond wig with a flying skirt published very soon, ha! ;)

It could be very interesting doing something like that. I'm for candid/street shots, but I can nonetheless appreciate beautiful studio shots when they work and show something new.

Actually, I'm working on it... not with a nude she-male but something similar in approach...

OMG Balazs, that looks just like a very original image I found on the internet, can you believe it ???


;-)

(by the way Fabio, sorry for hijacking the thread with this nonsense, couldn't resist...)

There is some photographic style that is different from a culture to another..
How about some western style shots?
Like somebody walking on a road disappearing into the horizon
Person walking on an otherwise empty street, in b&w
Hay balls on the fields
Over saturated landscapes
That lonely tree..
Hmm, forgot.. ships on stormy seas..

I think it is a strange discussion. Most of us have some kind of own style when looking at published work here. Very few photographers seem to be in control of shooting a lot different kinds of shots. Let the indonesians shoot their way! A fantastic country by the way!

Now THAT is original Johan:):) The peerless fart & belching machine in a cape.
Who could have anticipated this. No one for sure!
True and honest originality, with a bit of pathos thown in for good measure.
A winner !!

Boedi, it's not about Indonesia or Indonesian photographers. We are talking about nearly identical shots from different photographers, nationality doesn't matter at all, I just mentioned Indonesia because it is a clear example in 1x. They could even come from Mars - but if they take pictures that are practically identical to other that have been already published, well, this look so weird for a place where most of the work is original or at least 'fresh', isn't it?

Suppose that 100 cow-racing pictures from different photographers where to be submitted almost identical to one another (same PoV, same crop and so on), would you like to see all of them? And can that be defined "own style" ?

it's OK, haha!

Now I understand why they wear a burqa. Shocking! :))



The point is Boedi, we don't know from these images how the Indonesians shoot. OK, what we have seen is spectacular and beautiful and all, but it is as not representative (I guess) as are typical Western nude shots taken in a workshop. Usually they go to a decayed location like abandoned hospitals and factories with some silicon-stuffed models and a dozen photographers take shots of the same scene same model same light same mood. It's impressive if you see it for the first time but when you see the same kind of photos appear one after the other the motif loses a lot of impact.

There is something disturbing me about those photos and photogs you mention;

1-) They seem to be the goods from the same factory, i mean it looks like they're using the same steps same software for editing the photos
2-) All of them looks very surreal, of course this is nothing bad at all
3-) A very well known photog is using 3 different names one in this site 2 in the other, why, of course this is not something to accuse but not good either.
4-) IO find some of the images more illustration than a photo.

But to sum it up; i find the images from this photogs very pleasent most of the time and still respect.

Regards

Thanks Andre, but perhaps I shouldn't submit this one for screening just yet... ;-)

On a more serious note: I agree with the sometimes striking similarities of cow racing photographs, etc. Most to-the-point remark I've read so far above is Balazs last sentence I guess: "when you see the same kind of photos appear one after the other the motif loses a lot of impact."

I think in 1X concept and mission, repeated motifs will not get published easily, so I guess it's also a logica matter of screeners being unaware that very similar motifs have come by before, we can't blame them for that of course. Should such images be submitted really short after each other, my guess is that the likelihood of publication would drop...

I'm keen to see your Aachen shots, Balazs :-)

Dear friends, I come from Indonesia . .
I agree that some pictures is similar, but as I don't agree that they are exactly the same as Uzay mentioned using the same steps same software.
Some of them looks surreal, but I think this are their style . . it is not like a photo anymore, but more illustration.
My questions : is that wrong ?

I personally don't like illustration type pictures, it's not my style. I like more natural, a bit dark but with dramatic lights.
A also like surreal, but I have not a chance to upload my surreal picture in this site.

Regards,

Ario Wibisono

Yeah, this is somewhat true, but a very misleading statement also. The same as been said way before, Susan Sontag said it nearly 40 years ago. Does that mean that nothing happened in photography since then ? And I believe there was the same sort of jaded opinions even in the 1930's... If you are talking about subject matter that is very true, of course. But is it really what photography is about ? As an example, did HCB ever shot an "original" subject matter ? ...and think about William Egglestone who is considered one of the most original photographer ever. What he would shoot (subject matter, in the very strict sense) was done thousands of times before, by amateur photographers (and by the way part of his inspiration came form that state-of fact).


You already did that, don't you ? the self / pregnant-hermaphrodite :)

It would be hard for one and the same photographer to take such strikingly similar images:
http://1x.com/photos/mood/29339/
http://1x.com/photos/mood/29242/

Same location, same kids:
http://1x.com/photos/action/30626/
http://1x.com/photos/action/31156/
http://1x.com/photos/action/30005/
http://1x.com/photos/action/29235/

More of the same:
http://1x.com/photos/action/29619/
http://1x.com/photos/action/23175/
http://1x.com/photos/action/28169/

gee, Balazs..you are so diligent in searching those photos.. :)

well, back to thread starter, I start to afraid if I upload a photo then find if my photo is similar with another photograph at here previously.. :(

That photographer is one of my all time favorites!! Hengki...just amazing.

i think that what bothers me and i am not talking about Indonesia but more on the idea of set up photo sessions...
there is no uniqueness. i spend long time waiting for a moment to happen naturally to be able to capture a special moment in time.. freeze time in a way...
but if i have a photo session with five or more photographers shooting like crazy and then showing eachother then the thrill of photography is gone. the images may be great for others but they will feel empty for me.
i guess i enjoy photography on my own and it is just a matter of taste.. i like the interaction with the people i meet and hate to feel like i am in some kind of zoo... we had a holiday here lately (maybe you will see some images :)) and many photographers came most of them journalists and i hated it...... they disturbed me and the people who live in the orthodox neighborhood. this wasnt a photo session but hungry photojournalist that lost their love for people and even started a fight i left with digust
i just hope that people can enjoy photography but everybody have their own way....
i am not judging of course and not comparing
keep love of photography its more important than the images

Hahahahaha......
It's really normal in Indonesia, guys..
I'm an indonesian, and every weekend we are gathering and do some hunting photos together.
That's why the picture look a like.....
You may say, we are not creative enough, Ooh yes, we are....*it's a shame for me..* LoL
that's why i move to Germany....

LOL....do something better. This is not the first time and will go on.

Oh Fabio, Balazs, I'm feeling guilty, too.

I've taken architectural shots of places and buildings photographed numerous times before. Even if I try to take images with my personal view of wellknown locations I surely have taken shots quite similar to those taken before by others.

I apologize for showing such boring stuff.

I'm flushing because of admitting to have no own creative sense.

I should quit photographing, shouldn't I?

You shouldn't quit photographing but reading out what we wrote wouldn't harm :) It's not about being against photographing well-known motifs but very similar photos of very similar or even identical motifs. Like in a stand-up comedy where every actor tells the same joke.

there isnt critique here against anybody just expressions of ideas
one shouldn't get discouraged but think for himself and maybe choose to change a bit or not

its a good discussion for all and as i write i learn
my portraits of india are as well a repeat of images that were done before millions of time
i hope that in israel i will be able to get some more original images from time to time..... but untill now i manged only one image :) i think but not sure :)

Balazs surely the joke has nothing to do with it as the Irish are often heard saying "its the way you tell them". Originality is for the birds or Tracy Emin & Damian Hirst to conjure up some new sick dull but yes no doubt original heap of garbage! Ralf said it all what is originality but a variation on a theme?

Let's not try to trivialize the topic, nor to be sarcastic (@KPK) for the sake of the discussion.
What we are talking about is pretty clear: starting from clichés up to cloned shots - pictures that are practically identical. Let's call original/different/new/fresh/whatever all the rest, ok?

There should be a substantial difference from one shot to another to be able to tell: yes, these are different photographs, they have different raison d'etre, different aesthetics at least.

It's an interesting discussion.


I can say that # 1 - 5 are staged, not # 6.
But the similarity (for # 1-5 even the lighting set up are similar) between them is: there are many photographers around. Even more in Cow Racing nowadays.
If in # 1-5 there were probably only five to ten (i have never been attend even once) people set up the shoot, in Pacu Jawi (Cow Racing) you can expect 50 people these days. This Cow Racing started to become greatly popular among Indonesian and South East Asian photographers. It's a great moment to be shot. So you can expect the picture is almost identical. Although not as identical as # 1-5, since no one ever try (until now) to set up the Cow Racing yet. However, trying to set any shot up, take it together and even upload it here is a choice.

Let me share an opinion about the Cow Racing, probably it's a little bit unrelated to photography itself.

I live not too far from the place where the Pacu Jawi (Cow Racing) are usually held. It is in West Sumatra. And it was me who posted it for the first time on my Facebook early 2009 before others start to come. But it also have been posted before by another photographer in a West Sumatra tourism website with different type of shot. But again who's the first is not important to me. I just really love to see my homeland cultures to be exposed to the world. Now many photographers & tourist keep coming, contributing for the local economy (not by paying for pictures) and helping to preserve the Cow Racing itself by the power of a photograph itself. Before many photographers came like bees, the local community and government never realized that how amazing the Cow Racing for people living outside those places.

And no, Indonesia is not only about this, there are more than 17000 island around with various culture and living human. Indonesian photographers are just starting working on it, in some way, we're still learning to work on it. In the future, you can expect more to come :)

P.S : if any of you ever had any chance to shot the Cow Racing, I'm absolutely sure that you will take it for the first time from the same point of view. The same picture probably will be the highlight of your photo trip to this place. No matter how many people have ever taken it before.

Three people travel together on a train. One says: "forty-three!" and they burst out in laughter with the guy sitting next to him. Then the other replies, "seventy-eight!" and again they laugh out loud. It goes on like this until they arrive when the third one asks the other two: "excuse me gentlemen but why did you laugh about numbers?" and they reply, "see sir, we have known each other for such a long time that we know each other's jokes by heart, and to save our breath we gave them numbers so that we don't have to tell the whole jokes all the time."

No doubt about that and to be honest, I envy you. One day I'll go there and smoke myself to death with kretek.
Again: all we said was that impact is lost when more and more similar photos of similar motifs appear, and it was no one's intention to criticize any photographer or to give a lecture about originality and creativity.

People taking the same image. All will be similar but not the same. Will be boring for us to see all the works but if you say yes to one image will be difficult to say no to a similar one.
imagesqueueimg]228738[/queueimg]

well..just send me a message if you want to come to Indonesia :)

All,

I personally don?t know to what extent one pic is original or not.

As been mentioned before, we (Indonesian) have quite many photo communities and then arranging a so called a photo hunting together. Sometimes the object is staged sometimes it?s not.

This is one of the ways we gather, share the idea, enjoy photography and then learning from each others.

We then upload the pics to local websites and some to 1x.

I personally don?t see anything?s wrong with that.

More over in 1x, and it?s up to the screeners to publish it or not.

Please don?t discourage anyone (not only Indonesian, but anyone) whose pics got published here by questioning or discussing its originality, impact or whatever.

Hi All,
I think nothings wrong with those kinds of shot as mentioned by Fabio, although the images come out with a close angle,composition even lighting, but I can say that kind of shot is different in taste, every photographer have the knowledge and the skill and different type of creation , but when to a stage with many photographer I can say that it looks same but different. So the problem is are we going to limited the photographer to take the shot ? nobody can stop that, in final words I'm agreed with Hariadi that in 1x we have a fair and best screener, once the photo is published nothing to say at all.

In the west, staging a photo session is often called a workshop. Then some photographer with a name will be able to charge big money for it..
I can't see anything wrong by setting up a shot to work together and learn from it. The problem, if it exists, must be 1x publishing it.

For the cow racing, I thought I just saw one of the shots (published here) at the top of a big international competition.. How many other shots from here are? And getting criticized??

Oh yes! There is something about the Indonesian traffic.. Been driving a bit there, and it can be quite ..interesting..

There's not an originalmeter for that. But I can easily tell if I've seen an image before, I can also tell if two or more images are so aesthetically and semantically close to each other that are practically to be considered identical. Again, le'ts call the rest original/new/fresh...what represent a 'little step forward' not just a copy of what already exists.


I don't see either. Let's be crystal-clear, I have no problem whatsoever neither with you nor with the shots themselves..I aesthetically like those shots, but there are too many copies of them, unfortunately it's not the exclusive work of one photographer, but of a potentially great number of photographers that in the past took those shots and in the future will continue to take. I am a member of 1x just like you, and I think of it as a place where originality has some sort of value. That's it.


Of course. I respect their decision as I respect myself and my right to express my opinions as long as I'm allowed to do it.


I don't want to discourage anyone. It's not my intent. But perhaps, and I repeat perhaps, it's a good thing to be discouraged about this - if you plan to have an "own style" like some other Indonesian photographer said before, first thing is avoiding to take shots that 100 other photographers took or will take exactly like you did.

Who has really the power to limit one photographer to take a shot? I have not.
I'm not questioning about the screeners. It's a taboo topic, let's not talk about them. Talk about your ideas, what you think is originality, what you think is a cliché and when two shots, even when not exactly the same pixel-by-pixel, are to be considered practically identical. Those are the questions, those are the arguments for this topic. Let's share our opinions about it.

Fabio this is an interesting thread & one I might add that I was not by my earlier contribution intending to demean. I do though wonder if I could ever reconsider my liking an image just because I now know it is staged! after all studio shots are staged & many here are similar if not identical employ similar lighting techniques. Clearly an image can quite quickly become cliched by repetition but thats not to say its a bad thing because if an audience on balance finds it appealing then so be it. I much prefer to have an open mind about all the images I view to attempt in someway to not pollute my appreciation of something just because I have some preconceived opinion about how it was made. I have found some of the images that you are referring to delightful & appealing in their own right & frankly it doesn't bother me if they were staged.

We have an expression here that an image is chocolate box more likely to be found printed on a chocolate box than in an art gallery or picture postcard you know those standard shots of well known buildings or natural landmarks. But the point is thats what the general public like to see. There is a famous landmark in the UK Glencoe or more precise Rannoch Moor. There must be hundreds thousands of shots of this place taken in different light at different times of the year & in different climatic conditions yet we still see from time to time images that are powerful wonderfully framed of this famous place & some get published here! I know images of this place are somewhat cliched but to the uninitiated who are none the wiser they will not be! so until you have been satiated with a diet of such images you may be wowing them while others are damming them. Its really all irrelevant because for me its as simple as I like or I don't like & my becauses for that choice will not include its been done before or that its staged or for that matter its not original.

Should the shooter be divulging the fact the shot was taken in a controlled environment is a completely different question & one akin to the argument about creative edit or not. Is it incumbent on the artist to be honest about this sort of information? I don't really have an opinion either way.

What I do know is that over time these sort of fabricated shots will become passe as an audience we will probably tire of them as the old adage goes once you have seen one you have seen them all. I though would preach give these guys credit they have every right to approach their work this way let the images stand on their own merit as after all you don't have to like them nor do I for that matter & ultimately like every image published here they are published on merit & while that merit may not be equal to what you think has merit thats as it is.

It is, heart of the matter. Because in an exhibition the editor is almost as responsible for the final outcome as the photographer (be it the same person or not). And the decision to publish similar/ cloned shots legitimates to do it again and again (not to speak about the desensitization effect, as Balasz pointed out).

But that's not the point, Gerard, please let's go forward, I repeated it like 10 times before.. :/
It's not a "staged vs candid" philosophical battle. I personally like many staged pictures I've seen, even if they are against my way of viewing photography because they work as images (!), and I am able to admit that to myself.


You can really do that? To me it'd be like trying to lie to myself, I'm not accustomed to do it, especially in photography - if my eye/mind see an image that I've already seen, I'm not able to recover the exact impression that gave me the first time. I think it's not possible for anyone, by the way.


You're using the adjective "different". You see, they are different, not the same shot. Although a thing is stating it and another thing is noticing that difference for yourself.


I've said that before, I'm sure, I bet: I have nothing against those images in particular - I don't understand why different photographers take exactly the same shot. I wanted to understand why is that, and I wanted to discuss with 1x community what is the value of originality in photography and in 1x. If it comes out that originality has very little value here for most of us, well, I'll just accept it. We are free to express ourselves, we are talking about photography not about who's gonna go to heaven and who to hell. Let's give to things the right importance and let's all enjoy photography no matter what others may think of it.

Take my example of, say, 20 images all alike submitted during a week. If they are all similar and they all conform the screener taste, they all have the right to get published. This could turn out to be a real case, it's not impossible. So what.

This is exactly my point Fabio. Why bother doing something else (i.e. sthg else than cloned shots) if they finally get recognition - at least 1X recognition through publishing ? You can't blame photographers to do that and at the same time ignore the editor's policy, do you ?

You are right, Jacques. Even if I don't exactly "blame" them, my attitude is different as I said many times, I have to admit that the two things are linked to each other. No matter how we debate this argument it looks like we'll always stumble upon the screeners taboo and 1x sacrosanct right to publish what it wants.

Anyway, I think that this thread has somehow reached his aim, at least we brought to attention - even if shortly- something that I, without being alone, consider very important in photography.

the issue here Fabio is that a few pics have been published that do look similar, you now go on to exaggerate the case with a dooms day prophecy of 20 in the week. What you do not see are the images that are already declined for publication, a great many are on the grounds of duplication. There pretty much has been full discussion over this very issue on all of those shots, some made it a lot did not. But your point is noted that we like to try and keep the front page fresh and diverse, sometimes we are not 100% successful but hey, sue me. mal

Good point, Mal!

I understand your PoV and I respect your position, Mal.
All in all, even if those images immediately jump to the attention of those who already seen them, they are still "few" images with respect to all the others that get published and the ones that I cannot see that got declined for publication. None but you, screeners, can really have an idea of what you're up each and every day. Fair enough, keep up the good work. Your choice is still great, I appreciate it, not just for the sake of saying it, but because I think that. And I won't sue you, Mal ;P

So, it seems like this thread has reached a dead-end. Hopefully someone will take something good out of it, I'm sure this is the case.

Good, I'm a poor man...


Its always worthy of discussion Fabio, and being reminded or at least having repetition/duplication/cliche pointed out is appreciated, we want a front page that all can enjoy and be inspired by. I have a portfolio bursting with cliche and repetition that's why I love to visit this place for inspiration.

I can compete with you there Mal, 13 shots in my PF of bleeding Glen Coe/Rannoch Moor are testament to that, not to mention the thousands that have clogged up my computer harddrive....

Anyway, I quite like unoriginality, it's a safe and cosy place to be sometimes.....

;-))

JP

Just to add my 2 cents to this long drawn out discussion. The thread is extremely relevant as some of us have had the same thoughts about these repetitive shots and wondering if our shots get a fair chance. When one is up against published images where the photographers have all the control how does one get their images accepted when we take images that are aesthetically good but not perfect because we had no control over all the elements ?

That is the crux of this discussion. It is not as much about these 'cloned images ' where even the 'glow' seems manufactured in Post processing that get published. It is about some of us who are not comfortable with getting these 'staged' shots and not getting a fair chance of our shots not seeing the light of the day !

In essence it discourages some of us from submitting our photos as we already know it does not have all these 'staged 'elements that some screeners embrace without any question. There in lies the dichotomy.

The argument that 'end result ' is what counts becomes moot when the end result is not accomplished through ' straight photography' but other artificial means. That means it ceases to be a photography site.

What an interesting topic...

People with an opportunity to make some money (staging photo opportunities) making some honest money and people willing to use that opportunity to watch and enjoy the staged play and some making decent pictures, others making very good pictures.... To quote shakespeare "All the world's a stage, And all the men and women merely players."

Maybe we're (or I am - as a NW-European male) also a bit culturally biassed looking at the "non western world" (or the rural world in general) as a bit of an open air museum. Regarding the Bombay Barber as an exquisite foto opportunity but the Butcher from Brussels as a rather ordinary place. Seeing the pig being sacrificed in New Guinea as a photo opportunity... but not noticing the lorry on its way through our street to our local slaughterhouse....
You might say we are 'slaves' of our tastes and 'hypes' and that we have the means to satisfy our tastes and desires. You can also call it the fruits of tourism.... ;-)

As long as nobody trespasses the thin line between reality and illusion the bubble stays intact. The bubble will burst as these staged events themselves are seen as an event worth observing and registering. Turning the camera towards the viewers and the scene as a whole. Not just taking pictures of the stage but of the entire theatre...

It will be interesting to see if shots -holding up this mirror in front of us - breaking the bubble, showing the entire theater - will be submitted for screening on 1x and will meet the standards to get published. Will these type of images make it though the member screening process, or will we reject the image offered in the mirror held up to ourselves....

A nice tread with lots of food for thought

Best of luck

Willem

With an afterthought to ponder on.....
Why are we so so easy to lure with staged images opposed to less refined unstaged products.... And is it the fault of those that offer candy for the eyes or is it our own fault when we cant see or resist the temptation .....

I've just checked the most popular photos this month, out of 20 photos, 5 came from Indonesia, if I am not mistaken.
No. 1 (the most popular) is captured by Andre Arment. Yes, the photo is somewhat we may call cliche, but I think it is very beautiful picture . . .
This type of photo is still very rare even in Indonesia.

(I'll talk on newbie & Indonesian point of view :) )
I honestly say that in Indonesia, 1x is a place of pride .. if there is one photo that displayed here and we have (relatively) the same image, we would also try to upload that image..

As I said at the beginning that is sometimes, for us who have not matured in photography, we would upload our photos here (which is relatively the same) in order to get the same 'pride' ..

for a newbie, if his photo made it into the photo site(espesially here), a sense of excitement is almost the same as winning a photo contest .. :)
associated with it, let them develop their own way, let them find their own originality, if any images that are relatively similar, give them any nice advice to change their angle, or their lighting, etc..

like the statement of a photographer who has matured in here, photography is a field in which we explore ourselves personally..
and I believe, over time they will explore themselves personally and for their originality .. amien:)

Very sincere post

Rezkie i understand what you say but if this place is a kind of galery, let the wievers seek for originality.

The absolute true. More than a place to show ower photos to other photogs, IMO the principal interess is show to final viewer, and there are thousands of them came here all days :)

Originality ? I like that, but in this days with bilions of digital cameras in all planet, i prefer search quality. Well, some of this days i try to publish here a flying goat with wings :)

Actually it helps too much to clarify the originality IMHO

A flying goat is original. A flying pig would have been a cliché !

By the way, I know this wasn't your point, Rui, but I think originality is often in the way something is photographed not in the subject itself. It's often about composition.

Of course, and not often but always. If the interest resides only in subject matter what is the photog's merit apart from having been there ? That is why the mundane - as opposed to the extraordinary - is difficult in photograph.

having been there is a big deal as well.... getting permission t o capture images of closed communities or private people at there private surrounding isnt so simple. not everybody can get permissions it requires very good social skills and you can get original images
of course i agree that subject matter isnt everything

many times when i spoke to photographers about others work they say if i was there i would do it i just reply by saying making sure that you are there is a big part of the photographers work

Good point Sasson, but I think you are referring to something more than merely "being there" which is engaging.

"Just" being there (pic from Sergio Padura) :

... want to add that the very extreme example of "rewarding" photography that just involves "being there" is the paparazzi business.

None apart being there, but he was there and he took that picture.
Were you to take a picture of the yedi, even if centrally, trivially composed and a little motion-blurred too, it would be nonetheless a great photo. Because it's original, nobody has seen that subject, people wonder. Likewise, if you have the chance to capture something rare to see, the photo is more precious just for the fact that it contains that subject. By the way the subject could be a very normal group of people placed in a very peculiar way, not just single odd subjects. Photojournalists have a saying "f/8 and be there".

thats one way of being there :) i refer to a different one. obviously this isnt a closed community where one needs to get access.. this is on the touristic path.....
i am sure they can get some good images by avoiding the rest of the tourists
by being there i mean creating contacts with environment like Andre does... this could be anywhere by the way

and yes there is the paparazzi but i thought the discussion was more about artistic type of photography :)

but in any case being there is a big part of photography in many types of photography like documentary, landscape, street.........

and i should add beeing and seeing
sometimes we are there but cant see the image

sometimes just being there is enough like fabio explained
but again depends on which kind of photography you are refereeing to
nice to know about the f8 and be there saying :)

Sasson, maybe I did not explain myself very well, but what you are saying is exactly what I meant. And as far as landscape: seeing, being there, but at the right moment for the right light, choosing the right PoV, is, in a way, equivalent to engaging people when doing a portrait. I believe genuine landscap photog 'engage' their subject matter in a way.

Yes, but they also deliver a point of view, they edit the "reality"... Having said that I feel that sometimes, for given situations, PJ is not very far from paparazzi business, when they are told of a place from where to shoot, all gather and prepare their gear the one next to the other, and wait for the very same and expected event to come. I don't have any authority to say that myself but heard about that (remember the controversy about PJs embedded in the US army during the Gulf wars...)
... and if I mentioned the paparazzi business it is to emphasize the fact that being there and shooting only for subject matter can be the exact opposite of Art.

Just to complete what I wrote, being there and taking the shot involves also "timing" ability which is one of the strongest photographer's variables. And the choice of the moment can be also "artistic" somehow. Even if I don't very much like to associate photography to art.

" I hope the photograph turns out more interesting than what I just photographed!" or words to that effect. Garry Winogrand. . . again ;-)
Jon

Yep. that is what I meant when I said they provided a point of view and edit reality, as opposed to click compulsively for mere subject matter.

Yes, exactly, we wrote our last replies at the very same time.

speaking of Garry Winogrand this thread reminds me the "Apollo shot", where GW, instead of photographing the rocket launch did this photograph of a woman photographing something behind the scene. It has this very ironic vibe that would suit well and "tell" a lot about things said in this thread...

I think I can remember that picture. And Capra has one in which he 'shoots' a clutter of war photographers in Korea.... Also a great image

Would a picture like that pass the screening on 1x?
Reading the FAQ on screening
"We rarely publish photos with the photographer or cameras in them, unless they are outstanding, because cameras are usually not that beautiful in artistic photos, and because it ruins the illusion - the viewer is reminded that it's just a photograph."

Is there room on 1x for a more fotojournalistic approach toward the things "we" do....

Just wondering

I did mention somewhere that I don't get this FAQ statement and find it rather arbitrary, especially in light of this thread...

I don't get it either....
At least an interesting challenge to get these type of images up to a good / excellent standard and get them published.....

I am from Indonesia

and you can visit my web site here, there's so much about indonesia and tons of them, if you saw it at 1x.com which is consider as high quality and beatiful photo, yes you will find only the same picture and style all the time, cause that's just the way it is IMHO.

http://www.lightstalkers.org/galleries/slideshow/25288

These pictutres from Indoenesian photgraphers are very interesting.
Are they from some workshop or photography school?

I remember posting a gallery of images by an Indonesian photgrapher, Rarindra Prakarsa over 18 months ago on one of the sites I manage.
You can see it here

They have a very similar feel in terms of subject and style.

I guess the question is are these images the original work of the photographer or are they images taken during a workshop or class where the subjects and scenarios were arranged by a thrid party?

I have similar questions in mind, when seeing these photos. These shots are so extremely similar, that they have completely taken away the joy I felt when I saw them first. These days I feel almost cheated. Btw, picture #6 nicely expands the practice of oversharpened/-brightened eyes to teeth :-)

You dont need to be Einstein to work this out...... thats for sure!

But in saying that, they are nice images!

exactly, products from the same factory, when i wiev the photos i can distinguish ones from Indonesia easily, it was exciting in the beginning but lost the magic now, at least this is the situation for me.

Anyway, thanks for the input to our my friend Fabio.
photography is a vast world, and our creativity does not just end like that way :)

Best regards,
Edy

You are welcome, Edy....even if I'm never been there (and I'd love to), I am sure that Indonesia's beauty is not merely about that. Through those shots, I get a quite "sweetened" and "standardized" image for this large and populated country, which I bet has so many different souls and tastes..

Regards!
F.

hello nice to know you all
i'm new here :)

Hallo Fabian,
i try to respon ur statement, one by one ... ;)

Hi Choirul,


Sure, it certainly depends on how I look to photos and photography, but I wasn't just talking about similar taste, I was talking about similar photos. Almost identical photos. And with that I mean: same subject, same place, same light, same post-production, same PoV, etc. Therefore, it's not a question of similar taste but of similar result.


Fair enough, I understand you are a photo community and I have no problem with that. My only concern was about 1x and originality as I stated at the end of the topic.


A thing is being inspired, which is unavoidable and which includes a certain amount of personal reprocessing, another thing is to copy other people's work as is, which is certainly avoidable. Without being inspired by Robert Frank's "The Americans", we wouldn't have seen Garry Winogrand work, for instance. Inspiration is sound, and does not close the door on originality.

Hi all,
in the last months I saw many pictures from Indonesia users that are very (often embarassingly) similar to one another. Here are the types I remember:

1. Boy with flying pigeon and cage, indoor.
2. Guy(kid/elder) picking a rooster.
3. Kids catching a ball in the mud.
4. Fisherman on a canoa throwing the net against the sunset.
5. Kids playing with kites in the forest.
6. Cow racing.
Is Indonesia only about this? It's a rethoric question, of course. But why the very same subjects for such a large and populated country?
By now, it looks to me that these are recurrent situations where photographers go there to take their pictures in the same way, and maybe paying for that - I hope not though.
But it's not just about Indonesia, don't get me wrong. Therefore I ask, is originality still a value for a photographer? And for 1x?

>>> and why u using Indonesia for you example?

It's really hard to distinguish the photographers, no name needed under the pictures for most of them maybe just Indonesia is enough
of course some of them are excluded.

Not because I am discriminatory. I think you can figure it out for yourself, just have a look at those photos if you haven't done it yet.

santai gan, masih banyak hasil dari orang indonesia yang lebih bagus, this is happened...well maybe its because they we're in a same photo session

or maybe its a full coincidence coz the object are beautiful or the subject is really catchy to them,

For the Cow Race or Pacu Jawi, it was like a single phenomenon that happened such as in a world cup event, lots of people taking the same subject but in a

different angle and ways depends on theirs, coz this event not happened all the time,

Feel free to Indonesia, and post a new thread about it...

Salam Kenal

Guntur

Hi Fabio, i'm just new in 1x, and apparently, what you have complained here is also what i feel in personal, i also feels like kinda bored if there is many similarity style ... as far as i know as indonesian's people, many photographers in my country often making session to gather around, and like to "hunt" a photo with their friends.... probably that's why you met this situation.... well usually when i gather in this situation, i never upload or published it, because yeah i'm bored already ... i hate similarity in photo even if it's in different angle, different composition, as long as the object is the same, i always bored. :D , it's not because i hate the way it is, but it's all because i just wanna learn something when we gathered, but i'll find another way to make my own photo ... it's also probably there is event that probably once a year in our culture and many photographers there and shoot, so , looks like many photo will be looks like the same. oh well i hope i could found my own photo style... that's what i really want and i hope my photo will be different than what you complained here :) Cheeers, greet from newbie from indonesia.

I'm the one who posted it and yes, sadly, it's been removed with lightning speed.

IMHO, 1x needs a new screener team.

Agree, what we want to avoid is plagiarism, not character.

I think it unfair to discuss about clichè. May be "we" from western europe recognize such from indonesia earlier than our own ones e.g. walking people in twilight, with umbrella whether needed opr not, ballons of all colors, or nearly naked girls in front of rainy windows.
I do think it unfair, to discuss about originality or singularity, most shot are in a more or less unique appearance to be seen before. Even if subject/ model is concerned. Some faces here from europe are to be seen by several artists,
And of course it cannot be a question of staged or not. Who cares, if mood strikes.
Only one issue: For me, the process of artdevelopment is an important aspect. Of course a work can be product of a team. A form of collaboration in a creative process. That is clear. But I have one question. Is it the same, whether the photographer himself stages or if a third (professional) party stages the model, light, pose, colors,....? Who needs to be the artist? And, if it is necessary that artist is the originator at least to a certain degree, is that given in this works?
Pleas do not take me wrong, I do not know anything about this works and their development. No assumption, just a question.
Christoph

I'm totally agree with Fabio.
I'm the one who posted this issue before but my post was removed with lightning speed, exactly as Thomas described.
That kind of cliche must be avoided, proves the lack of better idea.
We want to see more originality and creativity in 1x.

I come from Indonesia and I'm sad to see that kind of cliche and similarities.
Fortunately, there are still many Indonesian photographers who have the distinctive styles and creativity, e.g:

Frederick Lim Cung Wei, http://1x.com/v2/#/member/20433/frederick-lim-cung-wei/
Saelan Wangsa, http://1x.com/v2/#member/22507/saelanwangsa/
Zulkarnain Katili, http://1x.com/v2/#/member/10840/zulkarnain-katili/

Among other creative Indonesian photographers, of course.

Hope this helps.