i just saw an image in screening that made me really mad. i have seen it here many times and in india that cultures are not respected at all... in india it was in Varansi where there is prohibition of photographing the funerals. just browse a bit and you will see many of these images online
about the image i saw i will tell you later after its out of screening. The point is that people must come before pictures.. i failed once, apologised, deleted the images and learned the lesson. i believe this should be discussed and explained especially for new photographers

I can understand you are upset, though, people's opinions and interpretations of those opinions vary widely and not all people may feel the same way that you do. A lot of photojournalists they are not meaning to disrespect but to simply show and record a moment, or an event. Perhaps this is what the photographer of the picture in question saw. Often time you have to put yourself in an uncomfortable situation to capture the moment you would like to capture, maybe the photographer agrees with you but the moment they were trying to convey outweighs that discomfort with the abuse of respect.

i disagree
we must remember we photograph people!! if this image or many many others will not taken nothing bad will happen. some photographers tend to act like they can do what ever they want....
but yes this is my opinion and i am happy to discuss it
i have been invited to many places where photography isnt allowed. so i just dont take photos thats all. not a big deal

Sassi, usually I tend to agree with your stuff but let's be careful here. Once I received such a pissed-off comment like yours here in screening: "The reason I really dislike photos like this is because, some people are so insensitive that they cannot see the photos they take are really denigrating poor people." This was totally unfair because the photo was taken in a mutually happy and fair situation:


Likewise, you can never know how a photo was made - perhaps it was made with all ethical issues settled, agreement and permission and everything. Of course it's difficult to talk about a photo we haven't seen (I didn't see any such photos in screening today). So, let's wait with the conclusions...

you are right although i know there can be no way an image like this could be taken with permission. i left a comment to the image with my name and i have no idea who the photographer is. 99.99999999% that the person didnt want the image to be taken

but lets discuss the idea of documentation versus respect to people
here in 1x i rarely see an image that is disrespectful but outside there are so many
why do photographers feel they can do that ?

Because we are arrogant bastards who would sell their own mother for a good photograph.

did you ever delete a great image out of respect to people ?

ummmm...exactly which person didn't want the image to be taken? In my particular culture it is assumed that once dead, folks don't much care about anything.

There's another "King" that might disagree...

its not a varansi picture king and the man was alive:)
it does open a way for discussion though . what do you think of photographers and tourist taking images of funerals in india even when they are told to stop?
it is also written everywhere that it is prohibited
some just rent a boat to photograph that from the river with big telephoto lenses. is that any better ?

Good question. But I think the answer is no. Probably because an image where people don't look respectful can't be a great image.

:)
in varanasi i captured e a beautiful image of a children that their hair is being shaved next to the river. i asked permission from their father before and told him that if he wanted i will delete it. so, i got the image and it was really one of my best and i was happy too show it . he really liked it and after looking at it for a minute said beautiful but delete it . i deleted of course. its a good lesson to delete great pictures because this way we know that there is always going to be another great image and we dont have to sell our soul to capture images

Well, obviously this was the kosher thing to do. I wouldn't have. That's why I use a polaroid in such situations - if you give them a real photograph in exchange, the whole situation is different.

in some places in india i printed and gave the images but yes polaroid will really help
but it gave me a good lesson (i still remember that picture :) )

Sasson, i agree 100% with you :-)

thank you my friend i know you do :) its part of why i love your images so much

Yes, I know that about you and that's one of the problems with my name...especially around Xmas (yes, I know, it's spelled Christmas). And you know it was a joke without a happy face emoticon.

When we get together, let's not talk religion, politics or noise vs. grain.

Do not walk behind, as I may not lead.
Do not walk ahead, as I may not follow.
Do not walk besi...as a matter of fact, just stay the hell away from me.

Every photographer has to make their own decision about that. When went on a 25-day assignment to China in 1980, I had a Chinese language business card printed. On the back, it asked very politely, "May I take your photograph?" I also learned to say this in Chinese and almost always asked before taking photos, when I could.

I believe in being polite. Some photographers believe in getting the photo, polite or not.

And in my particular culture, people must respect dead people and don´t profanate them, his memory or his dignity

And i respect your culture, and i´m shure you respect mine :-)

yes king i agree. i think that some photographers are blinded by the image and many times the image isnt good at all
i wonder why its like that especially if they dont make any financial profit of it.

WOW, seem like what I need here is an Elvis emoticon?? Peace on earth, good beer to all!! Thank you veeerrryyy much!!

I don´t like beer :-|

I think it sounds the right thing to do - asking for permission to photograph. But this can lead to some problematic cases in my view. Let's say there is a secret ritual who nobody is allowed to photograph and so there isn't a photographic documentation of it. Would you secretly shot this secretive event for the sake of public knowledge (and maybe make a dollar or two)? I am sure many societies have somethings they prefer not put on film.

Respect is a very positive word as is belief and culture. We should not fall into this trap of respecting ANY belief and culture. Google is asked to respect the Chinese government and Europe is asked (not so politely) to respect the Islamic culture. I once saw a photograph on an Israeli forum of a girl dancing in a cemetery. I think she was leaping over a grave or something of that sorts. You couldn't see a name on the stones and so this was an image of a general idea. This image was removed as it offended some users on the site. So, in respect of others beliefs and culture you can't show some girl dancing around in a cemetery.

If some high ranking priest or minister talks against infidelity and then you have the opportunity to shot him while visiting a prostitute, would you ask permission or respect him and not embarrass him? I don't adore the paparazzi but they sometimes shot some much needed photos.

All I am saying is that although it sounds nice to ask for permission and to respect different cultures, it is sometimes used to some ill doings.

Respect only works if it goes two ways...

exterem cases may happen.... but ususally it is just about the photographer trying to get an image for himself

if you dont have respect back then you just dont take the image. what is the big deal of missing an image ? do we really want to feel like we steal an image ?

I'm in total agreement with all that you have said. I have never been comfortable with taking public images to the point where I either don't trip the shutter or figure out a way to comnpose the image insuring anyone included is not idenrtifiable. You are right on the money when you use the word respect. In my opinion too many of us feel that because we have a camera we have the right to intrude on others when in fact it is their right to say yes or no. There was a reason Native Americans during the 1800's felt that taking a photograph of someone intruded on the individual's privacy to the point of stealing their soul. They were a people in touch with their surroundings. Many of us today touch only technology.

I think the point is rather how the funeral we are talking about was photographed - the image will tell you if it's disrespectful or not. And this is, as almost everything about photography, a subjective matter.
Ghandi's funeral? Wasn't photographed by HCB? Ok, it was something greater than just a funeral, but religiously speaking, wasn't that in principle the same thing?

Photographing Funerals! When you get invited and the people agree for taking pictures why not? The question is more if you do it hidden or official. I never would do this hidden. But this has nothing to do with respect for the culture this has something to do with the respect for the humans!

Robert

I find in western cultures, policemen don't like to be pgotographed beating up demonstrators, eastern policemen don't seem to care?

There is a business niche for funeral photography, though, whether that is up your alley or not is completely up to you. I don't think we should have constraints on art, or censorship.

Can't do this, can't do that...people will get offended. To hell with what people want, there's plenty of photographers out there to find something more up their alley. It's important to create real work created with emphasis on the you part especially.

Don't like it don't view it.

Censorship! Censorship! The world continually pulls s a steel cloth over its eyes, out of laziness and fear rather than understanding and comprehension.

Why are people taking photographs of people in unfortunate circumstances? Is it to hurt? No...but you would rather believe that, to justify why they shouldn't.

What a sad world we live in when people fear art

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,23553587-952,00.html

...and love.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2009/02/17/kissing-banned-at-warrington-railway-station-except-in-kissing-zone-115875-21129561/

Fear fear fear, censor censor censor, laziness laziness laziness.

Instead of fearing and getting angry that people are the ones in the wrong, perhaps you should consider that maybe it is you who is in the wrong - and understand why you are being upset over what you see. Perhaps there is a fault with your understanding...or ability to begin to try (there is, imho).

Karl, I don't think that Sasson - correct me if I'm wrong - is speaking about censorship - but respect of others will. The question is why do people take photographs of events when it's explicitly asked not to or widely known...

i dont agree with censorship :) i am talking about the obvious things and not trying to hide behind like i am going to take the most important picture that would make a change. look at 1x and tell me how many photos have really made a change?
i am talking about respecting cultures like religious Jewish people that dont want their photograph to be taken on shabbat (Saturday ) and cover their face when somebody tries to take their picture (but he still takes the picture ). or tourists taking pictures of funerals in india after being told not to and so on......
i am not suggesting censorship i suggest respecting traditions of other people also in public places that belong to all
basics of human behavior

also not taking pictures from hiding that you know people will disagree to.

there are many examples even here o 1x of beggars being photographed. some give permission and some never know that somebody photographed them.

about dont like it dont view it i disagree again.. i have seen in india how photographers give a bad name to all of the photographers and here in israel as well. where i take jewish religious photos it happens that once in a long time some stupid photographer who has no respect gets his camera broken.. i dont mind that at all as he deserves the treatment but this kind of photographers make people suspect me much more.... and makes it harder to create connections...
the disrespect of other photographers hurts me directly

So you basically justify using violence against people who do not "respect" your "culture". This is very sad. This mindset also explains beating up a woman who gets caught walking with short sleeves in an orthodox neighborhood. Sasson, I think you should be ashamed of yourself, more than some guy taking a photograph with no permission (and in a PUBLIC place out of all places!).

i am not ashamed at all... and this is why i dont like Israeli culture because they have no respect to each others and they love to argue. i am Israeli but lived abroad for 10 years..
i walked and got invited to many homes in the orthdox neighborhood and i find them the most open and accepting people in israel. i blame those who have no respect for what happens to them...
and i dont mind if a stupid a photographer who has been told not to photograph many times gets his camera broken if he wants he can call the cops. not my issue.
now if i see a woman gets into problems i will jump to help right away. but i did take some woman friends to the neighborhood and we had no problems at all.
but that is just my point of view :)) please dont put words that i didnt say in my mouth or try to interpret my thoughts.

when you go to church you dress correctly, at the wailing wall you put a kipa, at some of the temples in india you take off your shoes and in the orthodox neighborhood you dress modestly.... of course i am against violence against woman with short sleeves

i dont care about public places i care about respect..... in many countries that you find more advanced you cant by law take photos of others in public places especially after they say no. here in israel nobody cares
but i will not get into an argument and waste my time . for that there is an israeli photography website that i quit long ago after uploading a few images there. think whatever you want i rather meet people and get to know them.

Orthox people are the most open people in Israel?? I think your view of the world is twisted. You are in love with the mystic and you turn a blind eye from all the evil done in the name of religion.


I quoted you exactly about the violence and you only enforced that in your response. You can ASK someone not to take your photograph but you can't force him and of course you can not attack him.

Sasson, you don't care about respect, you know nothing about respect. Respect for the law or for the freedom of people. You choose to embrace a dark dogma and call it a respectful culture.


I fully understand that arguing with the likes of you is indeed a waste of time. There is many things I don't like about the Israeli society and I know too well the face of the 'ugly Israeli' but I also know that here in Israel I can speak my mind. There is no shame in exchanging ideas and points of view but I think it is better for you to concentrate on pure photographic topics and leave the open-minded debates to others. If you are so much against 'arguing' why open this topic? Or did you think you will only get praise for your point of view?

okay i will let you have your debates:)) i know the end result already so i quit

The great art of "inference" that ends in incorrect inference/fallacie is allways present in forums, Sasson :-)
Realy bether quit ;-)

Rui Pires, did I not understand what Sasson wrote? did I distort his meaning?

If you prefer Sasson's approach to debating, I think you should close the forum all together. If he didn't want his truth to be challenged, why open this thread? Is this a forum or a posting board for statements?

Although you and Sasson add smileys to your comments, I do not see the issue of violence as something to smile about. I understood from other threads that this kind of debate is frowned at here at 1x. You all just prefer smileys and happy talk. The worse one can talk about here is a photographer getting his prize canceled.

The things Sasson said are nothing to laugh about but in the interest of forum and global peace let us all add our smileys and turn to some other more sugary topic.

For me, this is just sad and a sign of poor conduct.

Yakov 8-(

thanks Rui and dont worry. if i choose to not debate that is also my right and i choose not to, thats all. your right is to think and write whatever you want.
good day to all.

Yakov, I don't think sasson's point is about justifying violence. I won't talk for him but my interpretation is: if somebody ends up breaking your camera because you were photographing them against their will you shouldn't be surprised. Does this justify violence? No, of course not, never, but you should expect a reaction to your behavior. Does anyone deserve violence? Absolutely not, but isn't it violent too to insist in photographing subjects or situations where people refuse to be photographed? Especially sensitive people. I think that's the point, how far photographers are willing to go to get the shot they want. It's very egoistic and sometimes ends in violence because they go too far. In my opinion they are being violent (though not physically) in the first place.

The point that this thread is about is respect, respect for culture. If somebody says NO photograph, stick to it, be respectful, don't be self-centered, go and shoot somewhere else, take NO for an answer.

For me photographing people is the end result of something that it's actually better and comes before the photos and that is, getting to know them, talking to them, getting involved in their lives and hopefully learn from them. If people don't want to be photographed, it's alright because it's not the most important thing.

Not all, but shure i prefer smileys and happy talk here in forums. And that is what I PREFER. And what i prefer is not susceptible of arguing.

Shure as moderator i don´t delete posts whitout smileys and happyness , except that posts or threads end in fight or insults between members.

That´s all. And another smiley to you, Yakov : :-)

peace ;-)

nicolas says it much better than me . thank you my friend

lol

:)
great Balazs

hmmm, so now let´s wait somebody cames here and write Balazs agree with kicking photographers :)

By the way, i take photos at 30 years, and never was kicked by humans ... just one problem or other with goats :)))

Goats and human can be rude at times indeed... But they can't really compete with governments on how bad trying to define what respect is:
http://cpj.org/2010/01/journalist-charged-with-insulting-uzbeks-faces-8-y.php

Jaques, it is this injustice that's insulting the Uzbeks (and the intelligence of the rest of the world), not those innocent images we can see. Shame.

Your an angel with wings :))))

Thank you, Phyllis, but i´m a special kind of angel, because i use bat wings.
I´m alergic to birds wings :))))

It doesn´t matches the post but...


Buddist festival in Ladakh, India. Photographers cueing whilst photographing a mom and daughter, all taking the same shot merely two meters away the woman. Check out the guy with the salakoff hat!!
OK the woman didn´t care so much but to me looked as a circus scene.
No comments.

brrr They think they are in a zoo ??? :(((

As a matter of fact it is a circus called tourist business. Ladakhis are very very good in this...

Shame and sad. Don't know what kind of photo they expect/would like to have. Maybe lonely people talking with their mobile phone ? I guess they would be happy to have Martin Parr photographing them at their cocktail parties.

its all over the place like that.....

at the touristic areas i mean

When I see a picture like that and a thread like this one, I cannot help but feel sadness for the entire human race.

People go on a holiday for many reasons, but more often than not - they fail - to experience much of anything. They do not take even ten minutes to talk to another human being, to touch them with a smile - a few words. They want to 'see' more then what is humanly possible, and worst they want pictures of it all. Digital cameras of course have made this only more intense. However, this was true even before digital. I have never understood this mentality. Though I can also understand the point Balazs' makes about people making a living from the dressing and posing; at least they are achieving something!

I think this mentality can bring about that lack of respect Sasson talks about. I know a couple who went to Europe - their only trip abroad - for 26 days. For an American this can be a big deal BTW, most don't have passports. However, now it gets comical. When they returned they had stacks and stacks of photographs. In this 26 days, they had been to Scotland, Ireland, England, Germany, France, Italy, and Spain. Yes 7 countries in 26 days..and of course we have to allow for travel time at the start and the end of the trip. He is the best part..they drove through all of these countries...in 26 days. They were suppose to visit me on this trip as I lived in Athens, Greece at the time - but they ran out of time! When they eventually showed me their photos, they could not remember which photo came from which country. I am laughing very hard now...remembering this. They had to ask each other - was that one in Spain..and the other would answer..well maybe..but it could be Italy..I am not so sure. When I asked them questions about the culture - the people they said it was all the same!!

Now do you expect people rushing through a holiday like this to even know what it is that they are not suppose to photograph? I think not. I have to say that this is not the exception, and it gets worse I think with photographers. They actually begin to believe that the photograph is the experience. It is like they are living in Platos' Cave! You need time to experience people and a desire to actually know and not judge a new culture. It is a treasure for us to be able to take a photograph in a new place, and bring that home to remember the experience. Yet, it is far better IMO to sit down with someone and share a cold glass of water on a hot day. I remember those moments with no picture far more clearly than the ones I took from a distance of a complete stranger that I had no words with. It would not kill us to leave the camera behind every other day! :)

I don't think respect when taking pictures is a debatable issue, nor one to argue about. You either possess respect and offer it or you do not. The golden rule applies to all people! However when you cross the line, and decide what is right or wrong for another person...go ahead but at least be brave enough to accept the consequences of your behavior. If you believe you have a higher cause and want to end an injustice, with a photograph OR any way - be prepared for all the consequences.

Phyllis

Yes.. of course I knew it..Bat Man!! :)

A very good documentary shot... did you submit it for screening ?

I think white people is ugly.
I'd vote for it in screening though...

I think there are idiots between all colors of people :)

OK Rui you are not ugly.

Thanks, Balazs :)

Thank you, Phyllis!

Great post Phyllis. People seem to want to collect the World using their camera, just like Susan Sontag said. . .
That couple sound like the sixties cliche of the American tourist ;-) I hope they wore Hawaiian shirts, Bermuda shorts and some seriously pointy sunglasses. . . I hope they enjoyed their trip anyway.

Rui, you can't be ugly, otherwise why would those old ladies and goats follow you around?

i do not see how taking a photo of somebody can be disrespectful? when i go to other countries and take pictures of people, thats not disrespectful, if i wouldnt care about the people there i wouldnt take photos of them. most often a camera can be some kind of helper to get in contact and talk to other people.

Let's define this as pictures where the only matter of interest is the misery or strange look/behaviour of the subject, like shots of Indian beggars taken without any empathy, or imagine yourself being photographed by a Chinese tourist and posted on a Chinese website with a caption like "look at his big nose". (I don't know anything about your nose, probably you have a very charming and beautiful nose, it's just a theoretical example...). Because there's many images out there where the only point is that someone looks strange/weird/disgusting in our eyes. Not everyone thinks like you Remo...