http://c4fap.org/cfe/2009Motion/index.asp

Hmm..interesting theme...
Thanks for the link Anna!

What a con job. Paying money to enter a contest..... people fall for this? The whole idea of a contest is that you enter. IE do something. This is like paying to have a job interview...

Well this is how it works. And its not a contest, Its a way to show your work.

But why does it work that way? This is like the recent back lash and public outing of the VC's and other money lenders in the USA that were caught out trying to charge people money to "pitch" their idea to then get a chance at receiving investment... you pay money to the people who are meant to be lending the money... :-\

Either way you cut it - it is a dirty thing to do. And hence my question.. "People encourage this by falling for it?"

Desperate photog's - like entrepreneurs trying to get a leg up are easy prey and this is just taking advantage of them and their eagerness to be discovered/displayed/shown....

It is un ethical is all I am saying and dirty..... these people should be HONOURED that photogs want to submit for their dime a dozen contests.... not charge them for it.

Richard, I have worked in the TV/Film design and promotions business for 28 years. Every year the companies I have worked for pay to enter projects we have completed in a number of awards competitions. I have dozens and dozens of awards I have received for my participation in these projects. I don't think ANY of these companies were desperate for attention, just part of doing business and attracting new/continued business.

I have entered several of these c4fap things before, I don't remember feeling particularly desperate either.

I think maybe you need to find a way to relax a bit this week...smoke a joint...find a goat to pet...something...

Just some ole hillbilly's advice!!

I can send one ...

They cut limbs off in China for smoking dope...... go the goat Richie but dont forget your gum boots!

lol

Well.....you are quite... well on the money.

I still think it is unethical. Just because it is the way it is done and people put up with it. That doesn't make it right.

Modeling agencies do the same thing. I can make you into a star! You are perfect, you just need to take this make up course ($1000), this hair style course ($300), this how to walk course ($500), this nail painting course ($200(, join this database club ($200) - oh and have us also take some professional photo's for you to put on our system ($400)....and then we'll get back to you........... it is a con and it is unethical.

Do new bands PAY MONEY to a record label that discovers them? Do bands put a 100 dollar bill in the envelope along with their demo tape or CD?

Actually you'll get the irony in this Glen, they opened an Ugg boot store in a fancy shopping mall here with AUD 300+ Ugg boots for sale!

Real Ugg boots like we see at Big W held together with a bit of string....... 300 AUD! ++ for whole racks of short, long, fluffy, black, pink, whatever.... Ugg boots! :-s

Female one please. I wouldn't want people to think I am weird or anything....

Richard.
Galleries (and Art in general) have fallen on hard times. It is not cheap to provide wall space for artists to show their work and put on receptions. And the "expensive" work of the top, well known artists does not pay the bills well, even though most galleries take 40-50% of the selling price.
Paying $35 for 3 entries into a juried show is not too much to ask of the many, many photographers out there that would like to show their images and maybe become recognized over time so that they may have a "Private" show in one of these galleries. Yes, it is hard to take sometimes in principle, but I think it is just a way for us to pay our dues and support those venues that have continuos expenses to keep the doors open so that new and emerging artists can be seen and appreciated.
The alternative is to have many of these venues close their doors and only the top photographers (or the well connected) be shown and many new starving artists (that well may be very good) continue to starve.
Bottom line is, Yes, it is difficult to swallow sometime and in a perfect world they should be happy to show our stuff. But how else might they keep their doors open.

How about then a voluntary donation? Or sponsor support?

A big thing here in the international schools and indeed back in Aus when I was in high school was a line on the tuition bill that said "Building Donation". What was funny is that it wasn't a 'donation' - it was compulsory and the amount set by the school. I never quite understood it and the legality of it - and always assumed that there was some tax issue involved with re labeling a fee as a donation.

My point is - is that it appears underhanded.

Supporting a gallery is fine. But asking to pay to enter a contest - just smells off. Of course the debate or issue of impropriety could be raised with self determined and voluntary "donations" and whether or not they curry favour or influence with the selectors like some ridiculous pre schools/parents I have read about in NYC.

Now if these places are losing money then ripping off eager artists is not the way to a sustainable going concern. The world and life changes - get with it and learn to adapt and evolve. Make art appealing to a new generation and find new ways to generate income that are based n creating a value proposition - business 101. I am sure there are ways for these places to raise money without taking the easy and fishy option of preying on the eager and starry eyed out there.

i hope you didnt buy a pair......... especially for 300 bucks, sounds like Moscow to me!

i just couldnt imagine u wearing uggies whilst shooting street!

Well they are real Ugg boots - real Aussie ones - proper brand name and all... I never spent more than 20 AUD for them.... yeah they are comfy - but they are hardly high fashion....unless of course the unemployed lumberjack style is the new raison d'etere of Paris and Milan?

It doesn't appear underhanded to me. It is straight up.
But maybe the problem is labeling them as competitions. Actually, I see it as the opportunity to be juried and judged by (presumably) a known artist in the field and show your work in the gallery.
It is not mandatory to enter the images if you don't care for them to be shown. And if one can be seen and discovered by other means, would it not lie on the artist's shoulder to find the way to do this? Sometimes paying for the privilege is the easiest and least expensive way.
What bothers me more, is the artist selling a work for a reasonable price that Joe Homeowner can place on the wall: and then have them pay 3 times as much $$ to have it framed. To me, the art is more valuable than the frame. But then that is another discussion altogether. Do we commoditize our art by underpricing it?

Good question. Framing - don't get me started on that. I put that down to the globally un sustainable labour market that pays salaries that are globally out of whack for what is rudimentary and basic manual labour. I have A3 size frames, hand made wooden, with glass (acid free) and precisely cut cardboard borders for approx 20 USD each.

Commoditize doesn't have to mean bad. The distribution may well be and probably should be commoditized - but does that really change the value there in the art itself? Maybe art should be valued more as a style of life and philosophy and involve such things as more lectures, work shops, conferences, etc - than pure focus on the actual art as the final result of "artistic endeavour"....

Re the competition. Then yeah - change the name. I know that then risks reducing the debate to one of semantics - but if the idea is to get your 5 mins in front of a judge...... well.... does American Idol charge to do so?

I suspect the price is probably much higher :-) (don't watch it myself)

True.... the price is measured in units that can't always be transposed into dollars and cents......bit like Internet fame. ;-)

Erh yes I fell for this.

Spent £20 to enter a competition, entered 15 images, had 8 shortlisted, got 1 commended and 2 category winners. Received a cheque for £2000. Numerous enquiries for prints and canvas', sold a few for the equivalent price of a new lens.

As a result my 3 images and contact details are published in a coffee table book, I've been mentioned on the BBC news website and had full page spreads in local newspapers and photography magazines.

£20 well spent in my case and I'l be doing it again next year, the only difference is that I'll be hoping for the £10,000 overall prize........


;-))))

JP

Another sad example of a scam victim...

...indeed Alex, a £2000 + better off victim. I forgot to mention the £1000 I won earlier in the year, that competition was free to enter though so I can't consider myself a victim in that one..... ;-))))


JP

John/Alex the issue isn't over the value proposition of entering a contest - free or otherwise and the derived utility that may come about.

It is over the ethics of asking for such entry fees - to enter a competition - that is going to be seen as a way to get exposure by eager young shooters. For every single person like you, how many people enter multiple competitions - multiple times and spend a fair sum of money?

You pay money so you can win money? If it is a lottery now then? (Note sarcasm).

I don't know Richard, I can't say for other folk but you don't usually hear of folk who choose to enter such competitions complaining, they have a choice to and it's their money to spend as they feel I would have thought.

I probably agree that some of these competition organisations are only doing it as an extra income and publicity exercise but likely they do need to cover costs to some extent.

JP

Does that even exist? :)

I meant acid free paper. ;-) I was thinking about my mistake in the taxi today.....To eager to get out and shoot my PAN F today....

Now, Clyde your comment will have me smiling for months. The things you say.............. :)